A Deeply Fractured US

[Retired AF Guy]

Freedom is slavery I guess.

George Orwell:

 

[QV]

All the theoretical worriers who have tied themselves in knots about how lawless another Trump administration might be have essentially had their political nuts cut off by the recent revelations of just how lawless the current administration is being with respect to enforcing laws of the country.

To paraphrase Macauley, a democracy cannot tolerate a prolonged significant breach of its laws, let alone its constitution. Political parties are like two-year-old children and dogs - pass a fault, and a precedent is established.

Republicans who are down on the supposed immigration reform deal are in that position because they see an old gambit being played out again - go-along-to-get-along Republicans negotiate to accept nothing (more laws on top of the ones already not enforced) for something (money for Ukraine). The same Republicans also want the money for Ukraine, but they have some fuzzy notion that they have to try to get something in exchange, and an even fuzzier notion that most voters haven't gotten tired of their something-for-nothing deals. A sizeable fraction of American conservatives have been despising McConnell for just this kind of thing, and he is trying to do it again. This is what leads to "more Trump".

Careful, pointing out the obvious will get you labelled a Trump supporter.

 

[QV]

But that’s not what he said/wrote, hence people reading it as suggesting Putin was more trustworthy.

He didn't say he supported Putin over the American intelligence community. He was making a point that is obviously lost on those who still believe the Russia collusion hoax was legit and not one of the biggest scandals in American political history.

 

[KevinB]

He didn't say he supported Putin over the American intelligence community. He was making a point that is obviously lost on those who still believe the Russia collusion hoax was legit and not one of the biggest scandals in American political history.

I take it you never did read the report.

 

[QV]

I take it you never did read the report.

Mueller or Durham? Either way Trump was cleared.

 

[KevinB]

Mueller or Durham? Either way Trump was cleared.

Trump being cleared from direct involvement yes. But there were significant areas of Russian interference, including some very shady campaign finance issues from some Reps both GOP and DNC.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Have you followed the bills and offers at all?

For my part, I'm still trying to figure out what the point of them is.

I understand the obvious scenario: the Democrats and some Republicans want to give more money to Ukraine, but that's a difficult political sale if Americans can't be convinced they're getting something for the money. Simply handing more money to Ukraine pisses off some Democratic voters, and some potential Republican establishment voters. So "something" is more border control legislation.

Equally obviously, there's nothing anyone can say that will convince skeptical voters that new laws will be meaningfully enforced if existing laws are not.

So what's the case for the bill(s), then (other than the aforementioned scenario)?

Anyone believing that weak border control isn't an issue may not have thought through some of the implications. In particular, Ukraine hawks should want that border tighter than a duck's ass, at least past the 2024 election.

Unfriendly terrorist-sponsoring countries undoubtedly see a weak border as an opportunity for infiltration. If a major terrorist attack occurs, Americans will be angry. Their anger will be directed at the perceived responsible nation(s). They are unlikely to be persuaded a second time that any other nation ought to be a target, or ought to be receiving funds. Their anger is also going to be directed at the federal administration that they most blame for insufficient risk mitigation.

So the shortest route to severing American funding from Ukraine might just be a major terrorist attack that embarrasses the Biden administration by leaving a trail of evidence pointing to infiltration at the southern border, resulting in a new administration that is disinclined to support Ukraine and has an excuse to focus blood and treasure somewhere else.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Mueller or Durham? Either way Trump was cleared.

He was not "exonerated". They tried very hard to leave the taint of suspicion hanging over the obstruction issue.

 

[KevinB]

For my part, I'm still trying to figure out what the point of them is.

I understand the obvious scenario: the Democrats and some Republicans want to give more money to Ukraine, but that's a difficult political sale if Americans can't be convinced they're getting something for the money. Simply handing more money to Ukraine pisses off some Democratic voters, and some potential Republican establishment voters. So "something" is more border control legislation.

It’s not even real money for the most part. It’s stuff from us. Which in turn allows us to get new toys.

Equally obviously, there's nothing anyone can say that will convince skeptical voters that new laws will be meaningfully enforced if existing laws are not.

So what's the case for the bill(s), then (other than the aforementioned scenario)?

The issue is that the Republicans asked for a Border deal, and when POTUS and the DNC came with one, the GOP balked (and censored some GOP Senators for their comments about how can you ignore the crisis when the Democrats came to deal on it).

Anyone believing that weak border control isn't an issue may not have thought through some of the implications. In particular, Ukraine hawks should want that border tighter than a duck's ass, at least past the 2024 election.

Everyone wants to solve the border issues, but it’s not nearly as easy as that. There needs to be immigration reform at the same time to give people a path forward to legal immigration.

Unfriendly terrorist-sponsoring countries undoubtedly see a weak border as an opportunity for infiltration. If a major terrorist attack occurs, Americans will be angry. Their anger will be directed at the perceived responsible nation(s). They are unlikely to be persuaded a second time that any other nation ought to be a target, or ought to be receiving funds. Their anger is also going to be directed at the federal administration that they most blame for insufficient risk mitigation

Agreed, but the efforts of Abbot aren’t doing much, other than making a scene.

So the shortest route to severing American funding from Ukraine might just be a major terrorist attack that embarrasses the Biden administration by leaving a trail of evidence pointing to infiltration at the southern border, resulting in a new administration that is disinclined to support Ukraine and has an excuse to focus blood and treasure somewhere else.

Trump will line his pocket and ignore everything as per SOP if he gets in.

 

[Navy_Pete]

George Orwell:

Maybe 'Ignorance is Strength' is more appropriate, especially as some people now seem to deliberate cultivate it and are proud they have never read a book.

 

[The Bread Guy]

He didn't say he supported Putin over the American intelligence community ....

He sure didn't say he supported the int community over Putin either, right? If it's not a clear yes or no, it can always be read differently by different people.

 

[QV]

He was not "exonerated". They tried very hard to leave the taint of suspicion hanging over the obstruction issue.

You're right, my mistake. I thought the 'innocent until proven guilty' philosophy still applied.

 

[mariomike]

He sure didn't say he supported the int community over Putin either, right?

Anyone who has read about Roy Cohn and the former guy might find this of interest,

I’m Roy Cohn’s Cousin. He Would Have Detested Trump’s Russia Fawning.

As dangerous as Cohn was to American institutions, he never wavered in defending the U.S. against the ‘evil empire.’

He smeared Jews even though he was Jewish. He tarred Democrats even though he was a Democrat. He persecuted gay people even though he was gay.
Yet throughout his life, he held fast to one certainty: Russia and America were enemies. Roy often told me the Kremlin blamed the U.S. for Russia’s failure to prosper, so Russian leaders were bent on destroying our democracy.

I’m Roy Cohn’s Cousin. He Would Have Detested Trump’s Russia Fawning.

As dangerous as Cohn was to American institutions, he never wavered in defending the U.S. against the ‘evil empire.’

www.politico.com

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The issue is that the Republicans asked for a Border deal, and when POTUS and the DNC came with one, the GOP balked (and censored some GOP Senators for their comments about how can you ignore the crisis when the Democrats came to deal on it).

Here's what Biden is offering

Biden and senators on verge of striking immigration deal aimed at clamping down on illegal border crossings

After weeks of closed-door negotiations, the White House and a trio of senators could unveil an agreement as early as this week, sources said.

www.cbsnews.com

From the sounds of it, it only gets triggered after thousands of illegals increase to a certain point. Then Biden can order a closing, but not for those presenting themselves to BPS. He is also limited to a certain amount of days he can keep it in place.

The thing is, they could just reinstate the rules that Biden killed, with a single stroke of a pen, on day one. They don't even need a bill. Trump put effective rules in place by executive order. Biden undid them by executive order. Biden could reinstate them by executive order. He doesn't need both houses to pass immigration rules. He's creating unnecessary friction and animous. So the question is, why doesn't he pick up a pen and do it?

Everyone wants to solve the border issues, but it’s not nearly as easy as that. There needs to be immigration reform at the same time to give people a path forward to legal immigration.

But it is. Pick up the pen. Stop the increasing flow of illegals and then negotiate immigration reform. If you get a hole in a dam, flooding the valley, you don't sit there arguing about fixing the old one or building a new one. You plug the hole first, which gives you the room to figure out follow on action. Give people a path forward to legal immigration? You had working legal immigration paths for years before Biden ripped the border open and invited everyone to come. And now those that legally applied are in bureaucratic limbo because of this crisis. Or are you advocating a fast tracking of all illegals, current and future, to become citizens without all the hoops legal immigrants are currently required to go through to establish their claim? Of course, you need to ask why even bother to make millions of illegals US citizens. They already have, cell phones, drivers licenses, free access to medical and social programs, credit cards, free housing, if they can find it (a problem already existing for citizens, only exasperated by the influx of millions of undocumented, illegal aliens). Why bother with making them legal. They have everything they need, thanks to the US taxpayer. They lose all their freebies if they sign up.

Agreed, but the efforts of Abbot aren’t doing much, other than making a scene.

He's drawing attention to his citizens plight. His job is to protect Texas citizens and property. In the absence of the US feds doing their job, someone needs to do it. He has stopped the entry of illegals at Eagle Pass. If he let's BPS back, they will tear down the obstacles and allow the flow to resume unabated. It is taxing the citizens, infrastructure, social programs, criminal activity and general safety of the state. The WH is worried it will catch and other governors will apply the same tactic.

Let's not kid ourselves, this was not just a Biden gaffe inviting these people. This is a plan to destroy the nuclear family and middle class. To throw the US into turmoil, to disintegrate the rule of law. How do you suggest cities and states handle the coming riots and burning down of cities when millions of illegals decide all the free cells phones, credit cards, medical, welfare and drivers licenses aren't enough. When the summer heat starts killing the homeless illegals. They don't come from the same tolerant, law adiding, fair minded societies we have here. Once they realize there is zero consequences to any of their actions, they will set the US on fire.
Never mind the know and unknown terrorists that have waltzed in to set up cells here. Their plans will be more focused. The grid, water supply, industry, infrastructure, health care and food production. Of course their bread and butter suicide bombers will be active.

Then there is the thousands of fit, able bodied males, 18-24 year old Red Chinese that have come in and disappeared. I wonder what they plan to do here.

Before we talk reform and slag Republicans for inaction, let's answer the questions posed here first.

On a personal note, the collusion shouldn't be russia, but the unholy alliance of Schumer and McConnell to subvert the House.

 

[KevinB]

Your smoking crack if you think Trump had effective rules for the border, all that he had done there was where rules in place for COVID.
Yes, he put them in place, but then never did anything afterwards. They sunset, simply because the other Title 42 restrictions in place from that also sunset. Yes POTUS had tried to remove them sooner, but I'd say that is simply because what was being done at the border under Title 42 was simply unreasonable.

The border has been a train wreck for years, it isn't like all of a sudden that it is a crisis now, other than a manufactured one.

CBP doesn't simply let people into the US, that is some weird MAGA dream, illegal migrants that are caught, are processed, and sometimes released due to overcrowding. One often unaknownaspect is they have had their biometrics taken, eye scans, facial recognition and finger prints - so while yes they are wandering around in the US if released (which I think is a terrible concept) they are locatable.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If you say so.

 

[CountDC]

But that’s not what he said/wrote, hence people reading it as suggesting Putin was more trustworthy.

From everything that is happening and coming out maybe he was.

 

[KevinB]

Saddest aspect is some don't even understand their treason...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1751784927929024705

 

[Fishbone Jones]

As opposed to Red China's puppet retaining the WH?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Saddest aspect is some don't even understand their treason...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1751784927929024705

Just because America's enemies seize on its domestic discontents to stir the pot, doesn't make one side in the domestic dispute treasonous. Texas isn't responsible for how Russia or China or anyone else spins it.