A Deeply Fractured US

[KevinB]

There are reports the rifle and some rounds were located, the rounds had trans and anti-fascist markings on them. Shocker.

Engraving comments where debunked - seems to have originated out of a far right MAGA guy in Denver (a firefighter).

Rifle is reported to be a Mauser action - however conflicting reports to be either 7x57, or 30-06 (similar sized rounds so someone not totally familiar with firearms may mistakenly think 30-06 and not know enough to look at barrel engraving for the caliber, as well as the ammunition head stamp).

Red flag laws?

State by State: Issues on both implementation and verification have occurred, some not going far enough some too far.

Waiting periods?

State By State: Most states have exemptions for CCW/CWP

Universal background checks?

Already a thing 4473 Nation Wide.





Unity not division.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1966132179156467754

 

[Altair]

State by State: Issues on both implementation and verification have occurred, some not going far enough some too far.

So a muddled mess.

State By State: Most states have exemptions for CCW/CWP

Also a muddled mess.

Already a thing 4473 Nation Wide.

Can you elaborate on this?

Unity not division.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1966132179156467754

Things were simpler then.

 

[Brad Sallows]

France, the UK, parts of Canada.

Canada has nothing like the gang and racial problems of the US. You've confirmed you're drawing on absurdities.

Noted. Any form of responsible gun laws is in your view anti gun.

You're also working hard at being obtuse. I noted that as a trivial absolute answer, all control measures can be regarded as effectively anti-gun; I further noted that it depends on the intent of the proponent; I finished by noting that the trivial absolute answer didn't matter because the position of even most 2A proponents is that some measures should be imposed.

Here is the fundamental fracture in the US on firearm control measures: those in favour pass laws and then fail to enforce them and then demand more laws, as if passing laws that are not particularly well-enforced or aimed at the most problematic demographic groups will fix the problem. They cannot or will not prove that their proposed control measures will actually solve the problem they claim to want to solve. Others join the bandwagon; it doesn't matter whether their real motive is humanitarian or they are simply opposing something that people they don't like seem to favour or because they like to dog-pile on the US, because they're just supporting more empty gestures until concretely proven otherwise. I will continue to speculate that they do this because they want to posture as if they care or maybe just to assert some kind of in-group virtue status, while avoiding taking responsibility for other policies they champion for which some of the unintended consequences lead to violence and disorder. What I believe doesn't matter much. But unlike Canadians, Americans who favour firearm ownership have the constitutional upper hand and won't submit to frog-boiling tactics intended to whittle away rights and privileges indefinitely until nothing is left. So external observers can play their more-in-sorrow-than-anger laments all they want, but if they want real action it's their own "team" that's refusing to play, and they ought to stop rewarding that inaction if they want action.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Engraving comments where debunked - seems to have originated out of a far right MAGA guy in Denver (a firefighter).

Rifle is reported to be a Mauser action - however conflicting reports to be either 7x57, or 30-06 (similar sized rounds so someone not totally familiar with firearms may mistakenly think 30-06 and not know enough to look at barrel engraving for the caliber, as well as the ammunition head stamp).


State by State: Issues on both implementation and verification have occurred, some not going far enough some too far.

State By State: Most states have exemptions for CCW/CWP


Already a thing 4473 Nation Wide.





Unity not division.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1966132179156467754

And the further expand on what Haley said - the Terrorists didn't care who was Democrat or Republican, white or black, man or women, gay or not, rich or poor, gun owner or gun opposed, pot smoker or teetotaler, fit or obese - they hated all of them because they were all American to them on that day and as a result, they all deserved to die.

 

[Jarnhamar]

You are probably correct. Past events demonstrate this to be true such as George Floyd vs Iryna Zarutska.

Though I wonder how far away a line exists that the political right can be pushed over.

Looking at the media's response to Iryna Zarutska's death race sure seems to make a difference.

 

[Brad Sallows]

So a muddled mess.

That's one frame for the dismissively inclined. For those interested in governance, it's an ocean of opportunities to try different things and learn what is useful and what is not. The weakness of top-down federal solutions is that we can only with difficulty figure out whether we are achieving security without unnecessary loss of liberty.

 

[KevinB]

So a muddled mess.

Yes, which gets back to my issues that there needs to be better social support as well as a secure method to integrate mental health and law enforcement. As well as an open hearing for those who've had their firearms rights temporarily removed.

Also a muddled mess.

Generally waiting periods don't do much - especially for multiple firearm owners.

Can you elaborate on this?

Every firearms purchase must be recorded on the Federal form 4473, which requires a NICS system on the purchaser. Some states still allow personal sales (often called gun show loopholes), but the onus (and legal liability) is on the seller to ensure the purchaser isn't a prohibited person.

Biggest issue is the failure to prosecute straw purchases.

Things were simpler then.

Not really, people just focused on unity in the face of adversity.
They didn't go on social media to fan the flames.

 

[Altair]

That's one frame for the dismissively inclined. For those interested in governance, it's an ocean of opportunities to try different things and learn what is useful and what is not. The weakness of top-down federal solutions is that we can only with difficulty figure out whether we are achieving security without unnecessary loss of liberty.

This only works in a vacuum.

Regardless, it's like I said. Dems favour gun laws, cannot pass them. GOP blames mental health, slashes health care and mental health funding.

Nothing will change, we are simply in the waiting period before the next incident.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Engraving comments where debunked - seems to have originated out of a far right MAGA guy in Denver (a firefighter).

There are always malicious salacious incendiary rumours.

Ultimately the shooter will be the person chiefly responsible; people who have lived by the "your rhetoric!" share-the-blame rule in the past will have to accept it if this time "their rhetoric" puts it in their laps.

But people other than the shooter are 100% responsible for their reactions and the expressions thereof.

 

[Blackadder1916]

So, as I wrote: he was explicitly OK with a less-than-zero-defect 2A. That doesn't extend to assuming any of the deaths are "acceptable"; at most the word "tolerated" could be used. A 2A absolutist can still regret every death.

Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Thesaurus results for ACCEPTABLE Synonyms for ACCEPTABLE: adequate, satisfactory, decent, okay, fine, good, OK, tolerable; Antonyms of ACCEPTABLE: unacceptable, inadequate, insufficient, unsatisfactory, lacking, wrong, objectionable, unsuitable www.merriam-webster.com	Thesaurus results for TOLERATED Synonyms for TOLERATED: permitted, allowed, let, suffered, ignored, condoned, put up with, disregarded; Antonyms of TOLERATED: prevented, prohibited, constrained, blocked, barred, forbade, discouraged, inhibited www.merriam-webster.com
acceptable adequate satisfactory decent okay fine good OK tolerable respectable useful serviceable suitable passable all right	tolerated permitted permissible allowed acceptable authorized approved endorsed legal tolerable promoted sanctioned supported encouraged justifiable excusable

 

[Altair]

Yes, which gets back to my issues that there needs to be better social support as well as a secure method to integrate mental health and law enforcement. As well as an open hearing for those who've had their firearms rights temporarily removed.

That would make sense. Never going to happen.

Generally waiting periods don't do much - especially for multiple firearm owners.

Sure, but they would do something, especially for first time firearm owners.

Every firearms purchase must be recorded on the Federal form 4473, which requires a NICS system on the purchaser. Some states still allow personal sales (often called gun show loopholes), but the onus (and legal liability) is on the seller to ensure the purchaser isn't a prohibited person.

If there is a loophole you can drive a truck through...is it really a rule?

Biggest issue is the failure to prosecute straw purchases.

One of the issues, certainly

Not really, people just focused on unity in the face of adversity.
They didn't go on social media to fan the flames.

Good guy. Bad guy. Simple.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Regardless, it's like I said. Dems favour gun laws, cannot pass them.

They can and do. Not all are overturned by challenges. And when they fail to enforce the gun laws they do have, their abrogation of that responsibility negates their future pleas for more until they use what they have. They invite the conclusion that they are merely posturing until they prove otherwise.

Republicans don't control all of the governments that de-institutionalize and resist institutionalizing people. Don't try to frame it as if they do.

[Add: "Communism has never really been tried." "We don't have enough gun control laws yet."]

 

[KevinB]

That would make sense. Never going to happen.

It is a state issue, so it needs to be resolved at the state - most states at least have semi-functioning governments, unlike the Fed.

Sure, but they would do something, especially for first time firearm owners.

Perhaps, but generally they are viewed as unconstitutional, as it is a preemptive action.

If there is a loophole you can drive a truck through...is it really a rule?

Depends on the state, you can't do it in VA anymore - all sales must go through dealers and have the 4473 done

One of the issues, certainly

Major issue, especially with criminals getting guns - but the laws are on the books and for years nothing was done, ATF is now getting very tough with offenders.

Good guy. Bad guy. Simple.

Whoever murdered Charlie Kirk for whatever reason is a bad guy -- that seems fairly simple.

 

[Altair]

Republicans don't control all of the governments that de-institutionalize and resist institutionalizing people. Don't try to frame it as if they do.

The most recent one big beautiful bill cut health care and mental health funding.

Experts concerned over Trump admin cuts to mental health programs

The Trump administration has made cuts to mental health programs across the federal government, which experts say will lead to less understanding of mental health.

abcnews.go.com

In May, for instance, the Department of Education discontinued Biden-era grants worth $1 billion aimed at improving mental health services in schools, saying the programs were not advancing administration priorities. The grants were allocated under President Joe Biden's signature Bipartisan Safer Communities Act, an anti-gun violence law signed after the mass school shooting in Uvalde, Texas. (The Department of Education has indicated it felt the grantees were discriminatory and plans to re-award the funding to other grantees.)

The bill is expected to reduce federal spending on Medicaid by $1 trillion and raise the number of uninsured people to nearly 12 million by 2034, according to the Congressional Budget Office, because of new work requirements.

Ettman said that Medicaid is the largest payer of mental health services in the United States, and that stricter eligibility requirements for programs like Medicaid that support access to healthcare "may have subsequent effects on mental health," she said.

 

[Altair]

It is a state issue, so it needs to be resolved at the state - most states at least have semi-functioning governments, unlike the Fed.

If I drive a state over and purchase a firearm using their rules and regulations, is there anything preventing me from returning to my home state with said firearm?

Perhaps, but generally they are viewed as unconstitutional, as it is a preemptive action.

Yup, never going to happen.

Depends on the state, you can't do it in VA anymore - all sales must go through dealers and have the 4473 done

See question one.

Major issue, especially with criminals getting guns - but the laws are on the books and for years nothing was done, ATF is now getting very tough with offenders.

We shall see

Whoever murdered Charlie Kirk for whatever reason is a bad guy -- that seems fairly simple.

That part is pretty simple. Shame there is a lot more going on than that.

 

[QV]

Adversarial media fuels the political polarization. When the left equates Trump with Hitler, it's implied that all measures are ok to stop Hitler and his minions.

 

[KevinB]

If I drive a state over and purchase a firearm using their rules and regulations, is there anything preventing me from returning to my home state with said firearm?

So you can't buy a pistol or semi-automatic rifle/shotgun anymore outside your home state.
To buy a bolt action, lever, pump etc manual system you need to do that in a contiguous border state (and now some states dont allow that).
In VA for example the State Police won't process the 4473 for anyone who isn't a Virginia Resident.

Yup, never going to happen.

Some states still do. I'm not adverse to waiting periods (I have a slew of guns, a CWP, and a FFL/SOT so it doesn't apply to me anyway - but how long is reasonable? 24hrs, 48hrs, 7 days, 14 days???

See question one.

See above answer

We shall see

Yeah still not enough being down in a lot of areas by the courts.

That part is pretty simple. Shame there is a lot more going on than that.

True

 

[Altair]

So you can't buy a pistol or semi-automatic rifle/shotgun anymore outside your home state.
To buy a bolt action, lever, pump etc manual system you need to do that in a contiguous border state (and now some states dont allow that).
In VA for example the State Police won't process the 4473 for anyone who isn't a Virginia Resident.

So while progress is made, it's still a patchwork is what you're saying.

Some states still do. I'm not adverse to waiting periods (I have a slew of guns, a CWP, and a FFL/SOT so it doesn't apply to me anyway - but how long is reasonable? 24hrs, 48hrs, 7 days, 14 days???

Me? 7-14 days. It's a moot point however.

 

[Altair]

Adversarial media fuels the political polarization. When the left equates Trump with Hitler, it's implied that all measures are ok to stop Hitler and his minions.

I'm happy to hear it's just the left doing this.

/S

 

[QV]

I'm happy to hear it's just the left doing this.

/S

The media and many other institutions are captured by the left. Yes, the media has been heavily favoring one side rather than reporting facts. Until that is mitigated, the problems will continue.