- Reaction score
- 6,724
- Points
- 1,360
sgf......have you actually been somewhere in this world and seen anything other than Canada?
Brad Sallows
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 8,839
- Points
- 1,040
>The fact is, as tough and cool as this sounds we as a society are judged not by how we treat those we deem worthy but by how we treat those who are categorically UNWORTHY.
I'd prefer we be judged as a society on the basis of how we treat those who are categorically UNLUCKY, with the UNWORTHY understanding that they are SOL and had best stay out of our way because we have neither time nor money to spare for the welfare of anyone except the UNLUCKY.
I'd prefer we be judged as a society on the basis of how we treat those who are categorically UNLUCKY, with the UNWORTHY understanding that they are SOL and had best stay out of our way because we have neither time nor money to spare for the welfare of anyone except the UNLUCKY.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 110
Detainee fallout: take few, free quickly
Details of new policy – and top soldier's outrage – emerge as government ministers refuse comment, citing operational secrecy
MICHAEL VALPY
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080129.wdetainees29/BNStory/Afghanistan/home
January 29, 2008 at 2:00 AM EST
The Canadian Forces are holding insurgent detainees at their Kandahar Air Force base rather than turning them over to Afghan authorities, are taking fewer prisoners and are quickly releasing some of them.
The information, provided to The Globe and Mail by sources, answers questions about Canada's new policy for handling detainees that Prime Minister Stephen Harper and other ministers repeatedly refused to provide Monday, citing the need for combat operational secrecy.
Reports have also emerged that General Rick Hillier, Chief of the Defence Staff, was furious with the Prime Minister's Office's handling of the military's new policy and angrily telephoned Mr. Harper Friday night after letting it be known he was “tired of being used” in political controversy.
After the revelation last week that Canadians ceased turning detainees over to the Afghan authorities in early November after discovering credible evidence of torture, the Prime Minister's Office initially said it hadn't been informed of this by senior officers.
Gen. Hillier was said to be “absolutely livid” when he learned of this.
Mr. Harper's chief spokeswoman, Sandra Buckler, retracted the statement the next day but refused to say where the detainees were being held.
Mr. Harper told the House of Commons Monday that his government will “never” answer questions about how many prisoners Canadian troops take or where they are kept. He also said the bilateral agreement governing the transfer of prisoners to Afghan authorities is still in place.
However, on Nov. 14, Germany's international broadcaster Deutsche Welle quoted German General Egon Ramms as saying NATO was aware that transferred detainees were being abused by Afghan authorities and that Canadian troops in Kandahar had stopped handing over prisoners until their safety and human rights could be guaranteed.
The presence of a detention facility at Kandahar Air Force base (KAF) has long been known. Prior to Nov. 5, detainees were held at the facility until they either were turned over to Afghan authorities or released. Now sources say either their detention is continued at KAF or they are released – reports Mr. Harper will not confirm.
One well-placed source who spoke to The Globe and Mail Monday on condition of anonymity said that, in addition to being told that Canadian detainees were being held at Kandahar Air Force base, he understood some insurgents detained in joint Canadian Forces-Afghan National Army combat operations were being turned over to the Afghan military in a “grey zone” action.
He said he has been told that Canadians have been content in some cases to allow operations to be labelled as Afghan-led military proceedings. Thus, detainees passed into Afghan military hands with no records kept.
Since the Canadian military's decision to stop transferring detainees became known, there has been rife speculation on what is being done with them, with three options being mentioned: that Canadians were holding detainees at KAF; that Canadians were transferring detainees to the Americans; and that Canadians had simply stopped detaining people.
Transferring detainees to the Americans would be, in the words of one federal politician, “the red-hot issue” because of the harsh interrogation techniques the U.S. military uses.
Janice Gross Stein, director of University of Toronto's Munk Centre for International Studies and co-author of a widely lauded book on Canada's military engagement in Afghanistan, said, “I would be astonished if the Canadian Forces were transferring detainees to the Americans, absolutely astonished.”
She also said she had not heard of any “grey zone” transfers but commented: “That would be a very dangerous thing to do.”
When Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion and deputy leader Michael Ignatieff visited Afghanistan earlier this month they were briefed on the policy change but did not see detainees, Mr. Ignatieff said Monday. He said they were given few details and he could not confirm or deny whether detainees were being interned at KAF.
Details of new policy – and top soldier's outrage – emerge as government ministers refuse comment, citing operational secrecy
MICHAEL VALPY
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080129.wdetainees29/BNStory/Afghanistan/home
January 29, 2008 at 2:00 AM EST
The Canadian Forces are holding insurgent detainees at their Kandahar Air Force base rather than turning them over to Afghan authorities, are taking fewer prisoners and are quickly releasing some of them.
The information, provided to The Globe and Mail by sources, answers questions about Canada's new policy for handling detainees that Prime Minister Stephen Harper and other ministers repeatedly refused to provide Monday, citing the need for combat operational secrecy.
Reports have also emerged that General Rick Hillier, Chief of the Defence Staff, was furious with the Prime Minister's Office's handling of the military's new policy and angrily telephoned Mr. Harper Friday night after letting it be known he was “tired of being used” in political controversy.
After the revelation last week that Canadians ceased turning detainees over to the Afghan authorities in early November after discovering credible evidence of torture, the Prime Minister's Office initially said it hadn't been informed of this by senior officers.
Gen. Hillier was said to be “absolutely livid” when he learned of this.
Mr. Harper's chief spokeswoman, Sandra Buckler, retracted the statement the next day but refused to say where the detainees were being held.
Mr. Harper told the House of Commons Monday that his government will “never” answer questions about how many prisoners Canadian troops take or where they are kept. He also said the bilateral agreement governing the transfer of prisoners to Afghan authorities is still in place.
However, on Nov. 14, Germany's international broadcaster Deutsche Welle quoted German General Egon Ramms as saying NATO was aware that transferred detainees were being abused by Afghan authorities and that Canadian troops in Kandahar had stopped handing over prisoners until their safety and human rights could be guaranteed.
The presence of a detention facility at Kandahar Air Force base (KAF) has long been known. Prior to Nov. 5, detainees were held at the facility until they either were turned over to Afghan authorities or released. Now sources say either their detention is continued at KAF or they are released – reports Mr. Harper will not confirm.
One well-placed source who spoke to The Globe and Mail Monday on condition of anonymity said that, in addition to being told that Canadian detainees were being held at Kandahar Air Force base, he understood some insurgents detained in joint Canadian Forces-Afghan National Army combat operations were being turned over to the Afghan military in a “grey zone” action.
He said he has been told that Canadians have been content in some cases to allow operations to be labelled as Afghan-led military proceedings. Thus, detainees passed into Afghan military hands with no records kept.
Since the Canadian military's decision to stop transferring detainees became known, there has been rife speculation on what is being done with them, with three options being mentioned: that Canadians were holding detainees at KAF; that Canadians were transferring detainees to the Americans; and that Canadians had simply stopped detaining people.
Transferring detainees to the Americans would be, in the words of one federal politician, “the red-hot issue” because of the harsh interrogation techniques the U.S. military uses.
Janice Gross Stein, director of University of Toronto's Munk Centre for International Studies and co-author of a widely lauded book on Canada's military engagement in Afghanistan, said, “I would be astonished if the Canadian Forces were transferring detainees to the Americans, absolutely astonished.”
She also said she had not heard of any “grey zone” transfers but commented: “That would be a very dangerous thing to do.”
When Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion and deputy leader Michael Ignatieff visited Afghanistan earlier this month they were briefed on the policy change but did not see detainees, Mr. Ignatieff said Monday. He said they were given few details and he could not confirm or deny whether detainees were being interned at KAF.
Bruce Monkhouse said:
one of the reasons that Canada is even in Afghanistan is respect for human rights, so honestly thats why I was taken aback at that statement. I also feel that neither the libs or tories have taken care of the detainee problem and thats not right and frankly the problem is still not being taken care off.
- Reaction score
- 1,518
- Points
- 1,040
Actually, it has been taken care of, and is being taken care of. Once a credible allegation of abuse/torture came to light, the CF immediately ceased prisoner transfers IAW the agreement with Kabul. The government was informed. The opposition was informed. Now it's a big stink, because Canadians weren't informed.
her boss, the PM ..who else...
with the record that Harper has on allowing anyone in his office and cabinet to speak on their own, do you honestly think that what she said was not on direct orders from him? ... and if she had spoken on her own, he would have fired her by now
with the record that Harper has on allowing anyone in his office and cabinet to speak on their own, do you honestly think that what she said was not on direct orders from him? ... and if she had spoken on her own, he would have fired her by now
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
sgf said:
You know talking like you have insider knowledge or know people (sandra?) personally in this group will just get you bombarded by calls to...
PROVE IT
- Reaction score
- 146
- Points
- 710
Watch this interview with Maj.-Gen. (ret'd) Lewis MacKenzie on "Mike Duffy Live". Love that third rum and Coke on the beach.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/HTMLTemplate?tf=/ctv/mar/video/new_player.html&cf=ctv/mar/ctv.cfg&hub=TopStories&video_link_high=http://esi.ctv.ca/datafeed/urlgen2.aspx?vid=28766&video_link_low=http://esi.ctv.ca/datafeed/urlgen2.aspx?vid=28766&clip_start=00:00:00.00&clip_end=00:07:27.00&clip_caption=Mike%20Duffy%20Live:%20Maj.-Gen.%20(ret'd)%20Lewis%20Mackenzie%20on%20the%20question%20period%20debates%20focusing%20on%20the%20mission&clip_id=28766&subhub=video&no_ads=no&sortdate=20080129&slug=rae_afghanistan_080129&archive=CTVNews
Here's the relevant bit from a CTV News story:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080129/rae_afghanistan_080129/20080129?hub=TopStories
Mark
Ottawa
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/HTMLTemplate?tf=/ctv/mar/video/new_player.html&cf=ctv/mar/ctv.cfg&hub=TopStories&video_link_high=http://esi.ctv.ca/datafeed/urlgen2.aspx?vid=28766&video_link_low=http://esi.ctv.ca/datafeed/urlgen2.aspx?vid=28766&clip_start=00:00:00.00&clip_end=00:07:27.00&clip_caption=Mike%20Duffy%20Live:%20Maj.-Gen.%20(ret'd)%20Lewis%20Mackenzie%20on%20the%20question%20period%20debates%20focusing%20on%20the%20mission&clip_id=28766&subhub=video&no_ads=no&sortdate=20080129&slug=rae_afghanistan_080129&archive=CTVNews
Here's the relevant bit from a CTV News story:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080129/rae_afghanistan_080129/20080129?hub=TopStories
Mark
Ottawa
Reccesoldier said:
insider knowledge? only what every Canadian knows.. and how is what control Harper has over his Cabinet, the PMO, and his staff and his distain for the media...
do you honestly believe that Buckler spoke on her accord? with prior approval from the PMO office?
Brad Sallows
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 8,839
- Points
- 1,040
If you're allowed to just make shit up based on what you think is likely or many people would believe, what's the point in expecting anyone to hold a rational discussion with you? Sure, your hypothesis seems likely. But why not just prove it?
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
sgf said:
And I would argue that Canadians know very little. The people who keep repeating these accusations are those that either have a political axe to grind or are in the business of amplifying small (often inconsequential) traits to sell newspapers.
As far as his "distain" for the Media, does demanding that the press actually investigate stories constitute distain? Isn't that what journalism is?
You see, I've been told by someone close to the inner workings of the Liberal party that they made a concerted effort to feed news and information to the press in order to control the message. As a result the press corps on the Hill became complacent, and instead of practicing due dillegence on a story merely regurgitated the message they were fed.
So when the current government took control and stopped the spoon feeding the press became indignant about doing their job.
you are probably right about Libs feeding stories, I dont doubt that at all. Actually Rick Mercer in his rant tonight seemed to be right on the mark regarding this
having said all that, where did Buckler get that information that she misspoke about..
having said all that, where did Buckler get that information that she misspoke about..
- Reaction score
- 1,518
- Points
- 1,040
I don't know. And neither do you. Nobody knows, but I highly doubt that the PM told her to say "Tell them that the military didn't tell us", especially when he knew that the leader of the opposition was also aware of the situation.sgf said:
The PM may have been born at night, but he wasn't born last night.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Though several Conservative MP's defended Buckler post facto-this was certainly under the direction of Mr. Harper. (see attached article)http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080126.whcaucus0126/BNStory/National/?cid=al_gam_mostdiscuss
