Afghan Detainee Mega Thread

[The Bread Guy]

But: it does not necessarily follow that either the MND or the PMO would have been informed - for any number of good and valid reasons, including the fact that the information had been lodged with staffs. It's called passing the buck and generals do it just as well as civil servants.

I would be surprised if someone as savvy as Gen. Hillier took this kind of information to the PMO, which is a very political place. To do so, and to be found out, could be construed would be evidence of the CDS being politically partisan. Hillier ought to have been way to smart to do that.

In light of this, it would be nice to see more than what the Globe & Mail had this morning - the headline says this:

PMO told of Afghan jail conditions, Hillier writes

and the article says this:

Mr. Hillier writes, the federal government was kept fully informed of the military's handling of prisoners, which contradicts statements from the Prime Minister's Office.

In early 2008, a spokeswoman for Mr. Harper "had told the media that the Canadian Forces - me, specifically - had not informed the Prime Minister that we had stopped the transfer of detainees from Canadian to Afghan custody," Mr. Hillier says in his book.

In fact, they had been kept fully informed, he stated. "We had made sure everyone knew that we were stopping those transfers - it was a sensitive issue, after all.

"... so there I was, [on vacation] working on my second rum and Coke, being blamed for something that simply wasn't true. I shut off my BlackBerry and had a third drink."

I look forward to reading the book (or hear from others who have) about if he indeed, as the headline says, spoke to PMO directly.  It IS a political place, but since, like DMs, he's appointed by the PM, it doesn't sound entirely outside the realm of possibility.

I anticipate yet another Liberal demand for yet another public inquiry; I doubt much will happen because I think the ongoing MPPCC probe will be shackled and new ones will be avoided; I also expect that Hillier, Colvin and many others will be called to testify by one or more HoC Committees. I also expect much heat and little light. Advice to ministers is protected - even from parliamentary committees.

Agreed...

 

[Old Sweat]

i have just checked his book again. Hillier devotes pages 457 to 468 to the handling of prisoners issue. He states on page 466 that "The Government of Canada was well aware of our decision [to stop the transfer of prisoners], and Foreign Affairs, wiht CIDA, the RCMP and Correctional Service Canada, were mandated to help the Afghans improve . . ."

He then responds on the same page re Sandra Buckler's claim that "the Canadian Forces - me specificall thaty- had not informed the Prime Minister that we had stopped the transfer of detainees from Canadian to Afghan custody." General Hillier writes "The previous fall [2007], we had told Foreign affairs, CIDA and the rest of the government that unless inspectors visited Afghan jails continually and built confidence that those detained by us were still being treated humanely, we were not going to transfer any more." and then adds in the next paragraph, "We had made sure everyone knew that we were stopping those transfers - it was a sensitive issue, after all, in the newspapers almost every day . . ."

Tony, the short answer is that nowhere does he say he told the PMO, but the inference is that key departments and thus the central agency - the PCO - were aware. Whether that is to allow the PMO some wiggle room or not is moot.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Tony, the short answer is that nowhere does he say he told the PMO, but the inference is that key departments and thus the central agency - the PCO - were aware. Whether that is to allow the PMO some wiggle room or not is moot.

Seen - so it's another case of "headlines not exactly matching the story" syndrome, in that he told a range of officials officials, but it's not clear whether he spoke to PMO specifically  - or at least FAR less clear than the Globe's headline makes out.

Thanks for sharing this, OS - very much appreciated.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Questions to the Defence Minister and responses here and here:

We improved a transfer agreement that would ensure visits. In fact, as recently as today I understand there have been 175 visits to Afghan prisons with respect to ensuring that conditions are proper .... We have invested over $132 million in improving the justice system of the country .... In fact, we met last night to talk about Afghanistan and there is now a program to train female Afghan prison guards.

 

[Edward Campbell]

This is extracted from Norman Spector’s blog on the Globe and Mail web site:

Le Devoir is reporting that Conservative Ministers Gordon O'Connor and Peter MacKay knew in 2006 that prisoners in Afghanistan were at risk of torture. Rick Hillier says in a interview with reporter Alec Castonguay that Amnesty International wrote to O'Connor in 2006 to warn him that this would be in contravention of the Geneva Convention: "He consulted me before replying to the letter. We spoke about it often, in every briefing," Hillier said, adding that the situation worsened in 2007, which led to a halt in transfers for several months. "It was only in the autumn of 2007 that we concluded that we would have to change the way we did things.”

 

[The Bread Guy]

From the Canadian Press:

The Harper government is refusing to pay the legal bills of a federal official whose warnings of possible torture in Afghan jails sparked a political storm, The Canadian Press has learned.

The Foreign Affairs Department gave preliminary approval to Richard Colvin's request to use an independent lawyer in September.

But it now says it won't pay the first set of bills until his lawyer discloses to the Justice Department who she has been talking with in relation to the case - something that could be a breach of ethical rules.

His pleas for the department to reconsider and to also give its final blessing for his use of an outside counsel have been turned down.

It's the latest development in an escalating dispute between the federal government and the diplomat-turned-intelligence officer, who has signalled he has relevant information about what military police knew - or didn't know - about the possible abuse of prisoners by Afghan authorities.

Colvin opted last summer to retain his own lawyer rather than rely on the Justice Department's stable of attorneys and, under federal guidelines, Ottawa is obliged to cover the cost.

But the government has now demanded to see the "accounts" and detailed notes compiled by his lawyer, Calgary-based Lori Bokenfohr.

The accounts would detail the names of who Bokenfohr has been speaking with in relation to Colvin's case, including the length and dates of such discussions.

Such information falls into the category of solicitor-client secrecy, she suggested ....

 

[The Bread Guy]

From Hansard of Question Period yesterday:

Hon. Jack Layton (Toronto—Danforth, NDP):  Mr. Speaker, the Conservatives have been doing everything in their power to muzzle and prevent diplomat Richard Colvin from telling what he knows about what happened in Afghan prisons. He has had to hire his own lawyer but the government has come in with every intimidation approach and delay tactic it can come up with.  He has to pay for his own lawyer but now the government is saying it will not pay the bills unless his lawyer reveals the list of  absolutely everyone she spoke with.  That is unbelievable. No lawyer should ever be asked to do that. No lawyer would do that. To do so would be to break the ethical contract.  What has the government got to hide? Let Colvin speak.

Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):  Mr. Speaker, there are so many inaccuracies in that question, I do not know where to start. At least the NDP is asking its questions from the floor of the House today.  There is a policy in place that covers Mr. Colvin and that covers the legal bills of any public servant. The rules are no different for Mr. Colvin than they are for any other public servant.

More here:

Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ):  Mr. Speaker, Richard Colvin, who informed the government of possible cases of torture in Afghanistan, was told by the Conservative government that his lawyer's fees would not be covered even though he had obtained preliminary approval.  The only explanation for the government's reversal is that it does not want the truth to come out about the Afghan prisoners who were tortured in Afghanistan.

Hon. Lawrence Cannon (Minister of Foreign Affairs, CPC):  Mr. Speaker, in reply to the direct question of whether or not the fees of Mr. Colvin's lawyer will be paid, the answer is yes. There are procedures to be followed and the government will ensure that his fees are paid under the appropriate circumstances.

 

[The Bread Guy]

..... here:

Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ):  Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Foreign Affairs said yesterday that the fees of Richard Colvin's lawyer would be paid, but that there are procedures to be followed.  Can the minister assure us that the procedures he is referring to do not mean that in order for Mr. Colvin's lawyer to get paid, she would have to become an informant and disclose the names of the people she spoke to in this affair?

Hon. Lawrence Cannon (Minister of Foreign Affairs, CPC):  Mr. Speaker, at no time did I say that the defence would have to disclose any type of information that would breach client-solicitor privilege. There are procedures to be followed and the parties are being asked to follow those procedures just like everyone else does when the government covers legal fees.

 

[riggermade]

Just heard this on Global

 

[xena]

As I read it, this would apply to Taliban prisoners held by the Canadian Forces at Kandahar - ONLY!

This has nothing to do with other Taliban prisoners or the Taliban in general.

Erm, exactly how many do we have, at the moment?

 

[mariomike]

"Health minister "disturbed" over plans to give H1N1 vaccine to Afghan detainees: KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - Afghan detainees in Canadian custody are being offered the H1N1 shot, military officials say - a move that took federal Health Minister Leona Aglukkaq by surprise Tuesday amid growing concern at home about Canada's dwindling supply of swine-flu vaccine.":
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/091110/national/afghan_cda_flu

"Taliban prisoners to get vaccine before Canadians: It's bad enough that nobody can explain how some Canadian inmates are receiving the H1N1 vaccine while most university students are still waiting.":
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/11/10/don-martin-taliban-prisoners-to-get-vaccine-before-canadians.aspx

 

[leroi]

So long as our Canadian Forces members stuck over there fighting for Canada get the vaccine before the taliban detainees, then I think it's a sound & sage decision.

We've seen in the past how the MSM and other interest groups and even politicians jump all over our military, pre-condemn them in fact, WRT to any slight mis-step--whether real or imagined--involving prisoners.

Even though I'm personally unhappy with the decision, I understand its necessity. Besides, if CF members are in close contact with enemy detainees, then it's imperative.

However, I'm confused on one point: I thought Canada turned enemy detainees over to the government of Afghanistan as their responsibility? Should the responsibility to vaccinate detainees not rest with Afghanistan rather than Canada? ???

 

[GAP]

Under the Geneva Conventions the prisoners must receive the same equivilant treatment as Canadian Soldiers.....if you think there is a big hullaballoo over giving the shots, just have one die of H1N1 and watch the fireworks go off....

 

[leroi]

Gap,  thank you. That is what I was trying to say but you have done so more concisely. :nod:

 

[Kat Stevens]

Under the Geneva Conventions the prisoners must receive the same equivilant treatment as Canadian Soldiers.....if you think there is a big hullaballoo over giving the shots, just have one die of H1N1 and watch the fireworks go off....

Fuck 'em.  Inform them that the vaccine was incubated in live pigs and give them the choice.  And if they all die of the flu, extra rice and fish heads for the troops.

 

[mariomike]

"Health minister "outraged" over plans to give H1N1 vaccine to Afghan detainees:
But later Tuesday, amid the controversy touched off, a spokesman for the Department of National Defence in Ottawa said that offering vaccinations to detainees "would be based on medical need and at this point there is no plan to vaccinate" them.":
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5i-RP6rTbCIELUdx5dIgQ1t07qAVw
http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/player.html?clipid=1325915327

"About those Geneva Conventions: The military says prisoners in Afghanistan will be offered the H1N1 vaccine. The military says this is in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. Health Minister Leona Aglukkaq says this is outrageous.":
http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/11/10/about-those-geneva-conventions/

Washington:
"The possibility that detainees would get vaccinated became a political and public relations headache for the Obama administration at a time when many Americans are still waiting for doses that are scarce.":
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/10/AR2009111009179.html?

"No H1N1 vaccine for Guantanamo, White House says:"
http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNews/idUSN0351869520091103

"H1N1 vaccinations to be offered to Guantanamo Bay detainees: Washington (CNN) -- The Pentagon will offer the H1N1 vaccination to detainees at the U.S. facility at Guantanamo Bay, officials there said Friday.":
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/30/guantanamo.h1n1.shots/index.html

Here's one more about a Hunger Strike: The prisoners did not have supper or breakfast:
"Gail Latouche of Corrections Canada, who oversees mentoring of guards at the prison, said she was made aware of the situation "in a telephone call from the prison at 11 a.m. today. The prisoners did not have supper or breakfast. It was termed a hunger strike."
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2204170

Newfoundland: "H1N1 cancels Remembrance Day school event":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2009/11/10/nl-h1n1-rememberance-1110.html

 

[Delta]

Under the Geneva Conventions the prisoners must receive the same equivilant treatment as Canadian Soldiers.....if you think there is a big hullaballoo over giving the shots, just have one die of H1N1 and watch the fireworks go off....

I thought Geneva Conventions only applies to the traditional uniformed members of opposing armies, not irregular combatants like the guerrilla Taliban fighters.

 

[helpup]

It means to me that this is a slow news day, the numbers we are talking about are minimal, it can be argued that it is our responsibility to perform that service and in the end it will also help protect us.  But then again it is late I am still at work and am not reading too much into the backstory on this one.

 

[Love793]

I thought Geneva Conventions only applies to the traditional uniformed members of opposing armies, not irregular combatants like the guerrilla Taliban fighters.

Nope, all PWs, detainees, Pers of Interests, bad dudes, Fighting Aged Guy awaiting questioning etc, get treated the same. Its up to the international courts to decide whom is a PW and whom isn't. In the mean time we treat them all the same, in accordance w/the LOAC (including the Geneva and Hague Conventions) and National Caveats.

 

[The Bread Guy]

This just out over lunch (Eastern Time) from the Liberal Party of Canada via e-mail mailing list - emphasis mine:

Friend--

Canada’s reputation as a human rights champion is on the line. Let’s stop Stephen Harper before he makes Canada a place we can’t recognize.

The Afghan detainee scandal has the government’s spin machine on overdrive. First the Conservatives called Richard Colvin, the courageous public servant who testified about prisoner abuse at a parliamentary committee last week, a Taliban “dupe.” Now, we've learned that Mr. Colvin copied the Office of the Minister of Foreign Affairs on his warnings, suggesting that those at the highest levels of government were aware of the situation.

It’s textbook US Republican-style attack politics, except this time it’s undermining Canada’s mission to bring democracy and respect for the rule of law to Afghanistan. We owe it to our troops, our diplomats, and to Canada’s international reputation to find the truth about what happened. In times like these, no one can afford to sit on the political sidelines.

Thank you,

Rocco Rossi
National Director, Liberal Party of Canada

(....)

PS. Your donation right now is timely for tax reasons, too. Political donations entitle you to a tax credit of up to 75 per cent. That means that the after-tax net cost of your $100 donation will be as little as $25. So please make a donation now and help the Liberal Party uncover the truth.