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Afghan Rapes & Canadian Soldiers' Duty

the 48th regulator said:
And Rome had laws against Pederasts too ;)

dileas

tess

Yes, rarely enforced.

We also (in 'western society') also have laws against having sex with underage children etc, but that doesn't stop a certain segment of the population from believing that this practise is "perfectly acceptable"(NAMBLA anyone??). Difference is, our government "enforces" these laws against such practices when we catch someone. (Yet, arguably, may sometimes 'overlook' this "illegal" practise occuring within 'western' society in some religions where multiple [often quite young and underage] wives occur ...
 
the 48th regulator said:
And Rome had laws against Pederasts too ;)

dileas

tess

Which were completely ignored by aristocrats and public officials with impunity.
 
ArmyVern said:
Yes, rarely enforced.

We also (in 'western society') also have laws against having sex with underage children etc, but that doesn't stop a certain segment of the population from believing that this practise is "perfectly acceptable"(NAMBLA anyone??). Difference is, our government "enforces" these laws against such practices when we catch someone. (Yet, arguably, may sometimes 'overlook' this "illegal" practise occuring within 'western' society in some religions where multiple [often quite young and underage] wives occur ...

Canadians have been charged for breaking this international law too...

Remember pedophile Canadian Christopher Paul Neil, who ws chargd in Thailand? 

Interpol went after him;

http://www.interpol.int/Public/ICPO/PressReleases/PR2007/PR200748.asp

nd we have gone after war criminals, who have broken international law, that is accepted in their country;

http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090915/mtl_montreal_munyaneza_090915/20090915/?hub=MontrealHome

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/10/12/warcrime051012.html

etc etc...

It is known as Universal jurisdiction.

dileas

tess

Kat Stevens said:
Which were completely ignored by aristocrats and public officials with impunity.

This may be a hard one for you, evidence shows that it was against the law, but please show me where the general populace, including the government condoned the act.  Only slaves were allowed to be used in any way, and well, slavery has been abolished.





dileas

tess
 
the 48th regulator said:
So after 8 years., 131 soldiers lost, and Hundreds injured, why are we there?

dileas

tess


Not to change Afghanistan's culture which might include turning a blind eye to some pretty disgusting things.

We are there to provide just enough security so that we can leave the Afghans to make their own decisions - even decisions we will not like, in their own ways - even in ways we will not like, without too much intimidation.

The Afghans have laws; the Afghan government has some responsibility to enforce its own laws.

When Canadian soldiers observe a clear violation of fundamental human rights - which child rape certainly is - there needs to be a mechanism, a formal mechanism, to report it; it is the very least that can be done. Someone, someone like I used to be, a senior staff officer, has to read those reports and advise the Afghans that they risk losing Canadian public support and aid money if they condone conduct Canadians find reprehensible. Then that senior staff officer has to tell the soldier who made the initial report that he, the staff weenie, has done what he could - inadequate though it may be. That's the feedback. We should do what we can - report, advise, feedback - even though we all know we should do more and want to do more.
 
Your wish is my command, this will get you started, from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome


History
[edit] Early Republic

In the early Roman Republic, pederasty with freeborn boys was considered a degenerate Greek practice and as such was generally condemned. See Lex Scantinia.
[edit] Mid and late Republic

As Greek attitudes gradually became accepted in Rome during the late Republic and early Empire, however, a new form of same-sex relations emerged that was quite different from homosexuality in ancient Greece, but owed much to it. As men, particularly the pater familias, wielded complete authority in Roman society, the Roman experience of same-sex relations is often characterized by master/slave-style interactions. Slaves still were considered legitimate sexual partners, often if not always regardless of their wishes. In short, an adult Roman citizen male could acceptably penetrate (whether a male or a female) but not be penetrated - catamite was commonly used as a slander.
[edit] Empire

Pederasty largely lost its status as a ritual part of education — a process already begun by the increasingly sophisticated and cosmopolitan Greeks — and was instead seen as an activity primarily driven by one's sexual desires and competing with desire for women.[citation needed] The social acceptance of pederastic relations waxed and waned during the centuries. Conservative thinkers condemned it — along with other forms of indulgence. Tacitus attacks the Greek customs of "gymnasia et otia et turpes amores" (palaestrae, idleness, and shameful loves). [1]

Other writers spent no effort censuring pederasty per se, but praised or blamed its various aspects. Martial appears to have favored it, going as far as to essentialize not the sexual use of the catamite but his nature as a boy: upon being discovered by his wife "inside a boy" and offered the "same thing" by her, he retorts with a list of mythological personages who, despite being married, took young male lovers, and concludes by rejecting her offer since "a woman merely has two vaginas." [2] Among the Romans, pederasty reached its zenith during the time of hellenophile emperor Hadrian. Commodus had a number of male lovers. Elagabalus also had numerous male lovers and even married one of these in a public ceremony. Philip the Arabian was also known for his fondness for young men.
[edit] Discussion
Two men and a woman; Pompeii
[edit] Roles and preferences

While it was common in Greece and Rome that the younger partner was passive and the older active, there is (especially from the Roman period) evidence that older men preferred the passive role. Martial describes, for example, the case of an older man who played the passive role and let a younger slave occupy the active role.[3] Often it was also assumed that only the active participant gained pleasure from sexual intercourse. In general, the passive role was equated with the role of a woman and therefore felt to be rather low. Suetonius reported that the Emperor Nero, in taking the passive sexual role with the freedmen Doryphorus, imitated the screams and whimpering of a young woman.[4] Men taking the passive role were often liable to be accused to take too much care of their appearance to attract and please potential active partners. Such men were usually shown in a negative light, having the word kinaidos / cinaedus applied to them (which could also be applied to eunuchs).

There are also other examples. Again Suetonius reported that Emperor Galba felt drawn to strong and experienced men.[5] More than once it is reported that soldiers were sexually assaulted by their higher officers.[6]

In addition to repeatedly described anal intercourse, there is also plenty of evidence that oral sex was common. A graffiti from Pompeii is unambiguous: "Secundus is a cocksucker of rare ability." ("Secundus felator rarus")[7] In contrast to ancient Greece, a large penis was a major element in attractiveness. In Petronius is a description of how a man with such a large penis in a public bathroom looked up, excited.[8] Several emperors are reported in a negative light for surrounding themselves with men with large sexual organs. [9]
[edit] Subculture

There are at least some signs that something approaching a homosexual subculture was already starting to develop in ancient Rome, although it certainly does not compare with modern subcultures. In Rome around 200 BC there was already a road where male prostitutes preferred staying[10], specialising in either the passive or active role. Other men searched for sailors in the vicinity of districts close to the Tiber.[11] Public baths are also referred to as a place to find sexual partners. Juvenal states that such men scratched their heads with a finger to identify themselves.
[edit] Female homosexuality

By the first century AD, there is a larger scope of sources on the possibility of female homosexuality. Ovid denied the possibility that such a thing ever existed.[12] Later comments, however, are extremely hostile, and even go as far as the killing of a woman by her husband.[13] Martial himself, who shows himself to be amused by all other kinds of 'deviation', has a very negative opinion of lesbian love.[14] In Egypt, however, some love spells in Greek have been found, which were clearly written by a woman the purpose of winning the heart of another woman, and so female homosexuality clearly occurred elsewhere in the Empire outside of Rome itself, and was not always seen in such a negative light.[citation needed]
[edit] Moral opinions
Eros and Silenus

The earliest formal record of legislation is Lex Scantinia, enacted in either 225 or 149 BC which regulated sexual behavior, including pederasty, adultery and passivity, and legislated the death penalty for same-sex behavior among free-born men[15] and there is evidence of punishments in earlier times. Above all, pederasty was condemned in the Republican era and dismissed as a sign of an effeminate Greek lifestyle.

In the mid Republic homosexual acts were widely accepted, if the active partner was a Roman, and the passive partner a slave or non-Roman. Deviations from this pattern were morally condemned, but apparently had few legal consequences. Martial and Plautus describe a wide range of homosexual behaviors, in part to poke fun at them like other minor standard deviations, but without too much moralizing. On the other hand, there is also from the year 108 an indictment against C. Vibius Maximus, a Roman officer in Egypt who had a sexual relationship with a young nobleman.

Juvenal condemned many forms of male homosexuality, and especially laments Roman men of high birth who show a moral front but secretly took the passive role. He found men who openly played the passive role pitiful but at least honest, and praised true love found by a man for a boy.[16] Public speeches usually condemned all forms of homosexuality. When Julius Caesar was ambassador to Nicomedes IV of Bithynia, he was rumoured to have had a relationship with the king and played the passive role but, though this damaged his reputation, it apparently had no legal consequences.[17] The emperor Hadrian had a relationship with the younger Antinous, although this was also criticized but not significant enough to prevent him plunging the empire into mourning following Antinous drowned in 130.

Negative attitudes towards same-sex relations continued following the adoption of Christianity and in 390, laws were re-enacted, making such relations punishable by death.[18]

According to some[who?], the circumstances surrounding the massacre of Thessaloniki in 390 suggest that even in the late 4th century homosexuality was still accepted in large parts of the population, while officially prosecuted. When a popular charioteer was arrested for having sexually harassed an army-commander or servant of the emperor, the people of the town were calling for his release, though this is more likely due to his popularity then to the nature of the allegation.
 
the 48th regulator said:
Canadians have been charged for breaking this international law too...
...

Sure they have Tess - I agree - but we also have segments of (and actually IN) the western hemisphere where these laws are often overlooked even given that "we" are (apparently) "so much more advanced in society than they". Think Utah. Underaged girls married off to mature males already having multiple wives (polygamy is illegal too here in the west) ... think "no sex" is happening there?? etc, seemingly "we" can 'overlook' it happening in our very own backyards ...

I haven't seen the UN (or the military) moving into Utah lately to sort it out either ... nor have I seen them move into Yemen to effect an arrest under international law of the mature male who married the young 12 year old who died during childbirth last week. Voice a political complaint they did, but that was/is the extent of it.

One can only enforce when and where there exists politcal will to enforce - despite the law.

 
E.R. Campbell said:
Not to change Afghanistan's culture which might include turning a blind eye to some pretty disgusting things.

We are there to provide just enough security so that we can leave the Afghans to make their own decisions - even decisions we will not like, in their own ways - even in ways we will not like, without too much intimidation.

The Afghans have laws; the Afghan government has some responsibility to enforce its own laws.

When Canadian soldiers observe a clear violation of fundamental human rights - which child rape certainly is - there needs to be a mechanism, a formal mechanism, to report it; it is the very least that can be done. Someone, someone like I used to be, a senior staff officer, has to read those reports and advise the Afghans that they risk losing Canadian public support and aid money if they condone conduct Canadians find reprehensible. Then that senior staff officer has to tell the soldier who made the initial report that he, the staff weenie, has done what he could - inadequate though it may be. That's the feedback. We should do what we can - report, advise, feedback - even though we all know we should do more and want to do more.

Agreed Edward.

Just a question, if we witness an Nato soldier, who is on operations with the Canadians, raping a Citizen what are the action that we can take?

Just wondering if Edward brought up a good point in stating that we do not have rules, in the action as soldiers, to report lawlessness that we witness overseas.

I may be chasing my tail, and not know what our boundaries are.  Is it a fact anyone can commit a crime, and Canadians do not have the mechanism in place to stop these actions.

dileas

tess


 
ArmyVern said:
Sure they have Tess - I agree - but we also have segments of (and actually IN) the western hemisphere where these laws are often overlooked even given that "we" are (apparently) "so much more advanced in society than they". Think Utah. Underaged girls married off to mature males already having multiple wives (polygamy is illegal too here in the west) ... think "no sex" is happening there?? etc, seemingly "we" can 'overlook' it happening in our very own backyards ...

I haven't seen the UN (or the military) moving into Utah lately to sort it out either ... nor have I seen them move into Yemen to effect an arrest under international law of the mature male who married the young 12 year old who died during childbirth last week. Voice a political complaint they did, but that was/is the extent of it.

One can only enforce when and where there exists politcal will to enforce - despite the law.


I missed the news,

How many troops have we lost in Yemen, to protect the rights of this young gal?

dileas

tess
 
It's absolutely amazing how quiet and unconcerned the Afghan government is on this whole affair, while our country and ourselves self flagellate into a frenzy of moral righteousness and indignation, isn't it ;) ::)
 
the 48th regulator said:
...
Just a question, if we witness an Nato soldier, who is on operations with the Canadians, raping a Citizen what are the action that we can take?
...


On that specific question, and bearing in mind that I retired before many Army.ca members were born:

If I was still serving, and IF I was in command, then that NATO soldier would be arrested and placed in close custody. Witnesses would have been identified and warned that they would be required for a trial. (Note: I have seen what amounted to a Board of Inquiry regarding a very serious matter conducted by one field officer in two or three minutes. His report to his CO was sufficient to support legal and diplomatic action.)

As soon as possible I would consult the nearest available legal officer re: how we were going to bring that NATO soldier to trial.

In the interim - maximum concurrent activity - the victim would have been sent to a Canadian medical facility for medical care and whatever evidence might be legally required.
 
the 48th regulator said:
I missed the news,

How many troops have we lost in Yemen, to protect the rights of this young gal?

dileas

tess

Absolutely zero Tess; Nor in the US - right here in Western society's own backyard ...

Yet, I haven't seen the UN make a move to kick start the Afghan govnt into "forced compliance based upon international law" within Afghanistan either. Funny that. Then again - there'd have to be "political will" to do that ... and there certainly doesn't seem to be.

If they did so, I must have missed that.

And so, the circle continues.
 
ArmyVern said:
Absolutely zero Tess; Nor in the US - right here in Western society's own backyard ...

Yet, I haven't seen the UN make a move to kick start the Afghan govnt into "forced compliance based upon international law" within Afghanistan either. Funny that. Then again - there'd have to be "political will" to do that ... and there certainly doesn't seem to be.

If they did so, I must have missed that.

And so, the circle continues.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/04/02/law-afghanistan.html

This concerns their legality of raping wives, which is an "Accepted Custom" and entered into law.  We rebuked it, which was deemed lawful.

Child rape, at not time legally, is acceptable, yet we are debating whether we should report it here on these forums.

recceguy said:
It's absolutely amazing how quiet and unconcerned the Afghan government is on this whole affair, while our country and ourselves self flagellate into a frenzy of moral righteousness and indignation, isn't it ;) ::)

Which is why we have spent so many years, and lives of Canadians, to be there to change their ways.

Dunno, I may receive warnings from the forum for this.

I was  of a generation, known as the "Peacekeepers".  We lambaste anyone from the media and the public who coined us with this Name today.  We here complained, that as soldiers, we had our hands tied and were allowed to witness Genocide, be it rape, Torture, terrorist, or death, under the UN and Canadian flag.  We now are in a war, where are hands are not tied, however all that I witness here is the "Peacekeeping" mentality.

Trust me, had I had the privileged to serve my country in Afghanistan, and I had witnessed any form of attack on children, I would break all rules of engagement, and gone in there guns a blazing.  My Beautiful knife would have had a chance to sing her song as well.

This was the excuse against being Peace keepers to do the duty, and honour that we Canadian soldiers were trained to do, and all I see is people defending the "hand tied" ideology that destroyed a Generation of Canadian Troops.

The pederasts are lucky, that I retired.

dileas

tess



 
Sigh, apparently, I have "no honour."  ::)

That means that I'm done with this thread - apparently it has become about those who realize that Rome wasn't built in a day and that political will plays a major part in "overturning and changing currently accetable Afghan cultural norms" being equated to "being without fortitude" or "acceptable moral compass".
 
ArmyVern said:
I never claimed to be Madonna either.

I'm done here.


no no no,

It was like me saying, Madonna babe no worries, I give you the respects 'cause I know you.

Not in a patronizing manner it may come out...Damn the freaking Internet.....
 
the 48th regulator said:
no no no,

It was like me saying, Madonna babe no worries, I give you the respects 'cause I know you.

Not in a patronizing manner it may come out...Damn the freaking Internet.....


I thought you meant ma doña as in this referring to Ma Doña Maria Elena, etc.
 
the 48th regulator said:
Trust me, had I had the privileged to serve my country in Afghanistan, and I had witnessed any form of attack on children, I would break all rules of engagement, and gone in there guns a blazing.  My Beautiful knife would have had a chance to sing her song as well.

See Tess

You really don't understand the way things work on these Tours.  It is outside our jurisdiction to do what you say you would do.  It is, however, within our jurisdiction to throw you in chains and Charge you, put you through a trial and imprison you after you may have committed that act.  Again, as "quests" there we are subject to their Laws, as well as ours.  They are only subject to their own Laws.  Even if they don't enforce their Laws, we most certainly do enforce our Laws within our jurisdiction, under which you would fall. 

You should seriously try talking to a JAG  and have all the legalities of being a NATO soldier in a foreign land explained to you.

 
I have read this thread and I think part of the difficulty with the debate is that we are mixing legality with morality. I think it confuses the issue to demonstrate that it is immoral by pointing to the illegality (did that make sense?)

Prostitution is illegal in many jurisdictions but soldiers are well-known (maybe falsely) for taking part. In that case, I think our moral acceptance trumps the technical legalities.

I agree that making soldiers in-theatre look on with impunity is terrible. There needs to be a mechanism to report. Reporting data helps quantify the problem, when trying to change the culture.
 
Not directly related, but a little example of how troops are hung out on the line when deployed.

I was on SFOR with 2VP in 97 as the AEV guru.  Part of our pre-deployment gobbledygook we had to sit through a long drawn out lecture from a JAG(off) as to the RoE for the tour, and just how hamstrung we were really going to be.  Question period followed, and I asked the following question; "Hypothetically, if I were to be tooling about the AOR in my AEV, and were to come across a spirited game of the Balkan national pastime (ethnic cleansing), and I were to place my vehicle between the two teams (Old Women and Kids vs Thugs... Yaaaay, Thugs!) harming one in the process, what am I looking at, discipine wise?" 
  His answer, with a horrified look on his face; " You would be charged with assault, attempted murder, and anything else we could possibly dream up to charge you with."

  I'm from Canada, I'm here to help, err, I mean, harrumph and look on disapprovingly.
 
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