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Afghanistan: Why we should be there (or not), how to conduct the mission (or not) & when to leave

Wow....just plain wow. I have never heard anyone as good as him at not answering a direct, yes or no, question. Dion absolutely astonishes me every time I hear him speak. Does he actually think he can CONFUSE people into voting for him come election time? 'Cause that seems to be his strategy thus far.
 
At post at The Torch (by BBS) that analyzes appropriate Arabic words when dealing with Muslim insurgents:

Effective Communication
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/09/effective-communication.html

Mark
Ottawa

 
We've gone from....

Canada assails Seoul for negotiating with Taliban
Agence France Presse, 30 Aug 07
Article link

Canadian Foreign Minister Maxime Bernier criticized Seoul Thursday for having negotiated with "terrorists" to free South Korean hostages held by Taliban rebels in Afghanistan.  "The Canadian position on dealings with terrorists is well-known to all those with even a passing familiarity with the subject," Bernier said in a statement.  "We do not negotiate with terrorists, for any reason. Such negotiations, even if unsuccessful, only lead to further acts of terrorism."....

to

Any co-operation with Taliban must come with conditions: MacKay
Canadian Press, 29 Sept 07
Article link

Defence Minister Peter MacKay says the Taliban will have to renounce violence and accept the NATO mission in Afghanistan if it wants to work with the Afghan government.  Afghan President Hamid Karzai renewed his call Saturday for talks with the Taliban after a deadly suicide bombing in Kabul ....  Speaking at an enrolment ceremony for new military personnel in Halifax, MacKay says any co-operation must include the preconditions that Karzai has laid out. Those include the Taliban's renunciation of violence and acceptance of the fact that NATO forces aren't leaving the country any time soon. MacKay said he's comfortable with anyone who is prepared to move away from activities on the ground that put Canadian soldiers, and others who are part of the NATO mission, at risk.  He added, "if that involves having the (Taliban) leadership accept those conditions and renounce the violence, then it's moving towards what we all want to see, and that is a stable, peaceful society in Afghanistan."

So, how long is it going to take the "peace advocates" to call this a flip flop?  ;)
 
A post at The Torch:

President Karzai, negotiations and the UN
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/09/president-karzai-negotiations-and-un.html

And this from the second of a three part series in the Washington Post on IEDs (mainly Iraq):
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/30/AR2007093001675_4.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2007092900754

...
If attacks showed complex ingenuity, devices tended to be simple, usually suggesting technical skills equivalent to those of a ham radio operator or a vocational school graduate, according to a DOD scientist. Simplicity made it easier to employ unlettered emplacers, who by late 2004 were generally recognized as being mercenaries rather than ideologues.

Perhaps reflecting the triumph of supply over demand, emplacer fees continued to decline, typically ranging from the equivalent of $300 to as little as $25. Killing a coalition soldier might earn a $700 bonus. In Afghanistan, a recent coalition price list showed that the families of suicide bombers usually were paid $500 to $2,000, with bounties as high as $10,000 for assassinating a NATO soldier [emphasis added]...

More from Douglas Farah:

IEDs and the Failure to Adapt
http://www.douglasfarah.com/article/253/ieds-and-the-failure-to-adapt.com

The Washington Post has devoted an inordinate amount of space to get into the nitty-gritty of one of the largest structural difficulties facing the military in the new wars it will be fighting-ability to adapt quickly to low-tech enemies.

The two-part [three actually] series looks at the effectiveness of Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs) and the long, late, multi-billion dollar effort by the military-ultimately unsuccessful-to combat them. IEDs are responsible for the vast bulk of the U.S. casualties in Iraq, and are increasingly used in Afghanistan as well. It has become the weapon of choice, along with suicide bombings, of the Islamist insurgencies.

(For a fascinating look at how the bombs are build, see this NEFA Foundation footage taken at a Taliban training camp just a few miles from Kabul.)
http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-US&brand=&vid=b4866af1-60e0-4ffb-bbc9-f807e1d503ae

One of the problems is the huge reliance, both in the combat theater and the intelligence community, on technology. This is highly useful in some areas, but it others it is far less useful than human resources, particularly human intelligence gathering capabilities.

The growing reliance on technology, or the inability to look for non-technological solutions to problems was highlighted by the 9/11 commission and other reports. It is still not being addressed in a significant manner.

The key paragraphs of the series, to me, are the following:

_“Insurgents have shown a cycle of adaptation that is short relative to the ability of U.S. forces to develop and field IED countermeasures,” a National Academy of Sciences paper concluded earlier this year._
An American electrical engineer who has worked in Baghdad for more than two years was blunter: “I never really feel like I’m ahead of the game.”

The IED struggle has become a test of national agility for a lumbering military-industrial complex fashioned during the Cold War to confront an even more lumbering Soviet system. “If we ever want to kneecap al-Qaeda, just get them to adopt our procurement system. It will bring them to their knees within a week,” a former Pentagon official said.

“We all drank the Kool-Aid,” said a retired Army officer who worked on counter-IED issues for three years. “We believed, and Congress was guilty as well, that because the United States was the technology powerhouse, the solution to this problem would come from science. That attitude was ‘All we have to do is throw technology at it and the problem will go away.’ . . . The day we lose a war it will be to guys with spears and loincloths, because they’re not tied to technology. And we’re kind of close to being there.”

This, again, is not new. During the Central American wars the FMLN started using Soviet-made mines to hurt the army. The U.S. supplied the army with mine detectors. The FMLN countered, after some trial and error, with mines made out of PVC tubing, entirely undetectable by the high-tech mine detectors.

The same was true with rebel communications. When the U.S. provided jamming devices for FMLN communications, the rebels discovered they could transmit over the barbed wire that encircled many of the fields, again bypassing the high-tech jamming devices.

We will be fighting small, counter-insurgency wars for the next century. There has to be at least a part of the intelligence and military establishments that can develop the flexibility and the capacity to do things the old fashioned, low-tech way-developing personal relationships, learning local languages and customs, getting a granular feel for the country in which they are engaged.

There are many brave folks over their fighting, and I have been privileged to deal with the Special Forces and others in the military establishment. I don’t think anyone would argue that, in the current climate and situations likely to last decades at least, that we need the low tech, not to replace the high tech, but to compliment it. It is getting late in the game to be this far behind in the adaptation arena.

Mark
Ottawa
 
Kandahar Dispatches« Previous Post | Main

More Canadian injuries, fewer reported
Monday, October 1, 2007 | 04:37 AM ET By Kandahar Dispatch By David Common
Article Link

I’ve just spent a few days on a thrilling and depressing story. My camera operator and I were embedded with an American medevac helicopter crew. They’re a good, friendly, capable bunch of guys who welcomed us instantly.

By far, the majority of the injured who are loaded into the back of their heaving Blackhawks are Canadians.

That tells a tale now rarely talked about: a great many Canadian soldiers are being injured in Afghanistan. And we’re not hearing about it.

The question now is, why? Two years ago, at the outset of this more dangerous mission in southern Afghanistan, any and every injury was made public to journalists embedded with Canadian soldiers in Kandahar, and with Canadians at large.

Names of the injured weren’t always released, citing a very justifiable desire for privacy. But their general injuries always were. If someone was injured in a road accident, it was made public. Ditto for someone being shot, hit by a suicide bomber or a roadside bomb — even if it was a minor wound.

Now most injuries not reported

A new policy has clearly emerged. Deaths are still reported but injuries are not, unless one of two scenarios exists. The first is if the injury is so severe, it may very well result in death. The second is if journalists already know about it. If a journalist happens to be in a convoy that is hit and sees the injury, they’ll obviously know about it.

Injuries are increasingly frequent these days. As many as four roadside bomb strikes happen each week. Soldiers are being injured in the process, some of them seriously. Some of them will lose limbs. Others will have their lives irreparably damaged. We won’t know. Whether we should know is another question.

So what’s changed? There is the argument that politicians — fearing a further loss of public support for this mission — don’t want to reveal the true number of injuries. Another school of thought is that the injuries have become so routine, the military doesn’t view them as a “new development” and thus not newsworthy (or publicly releasable). A final argument is that there is now so much violence, the deployed soldiers’ would prefer to reduce the publication of bad news that will further worry their families back in Canada.

As the medevac crew was launched on one medical mission after another, we repeatedly saw Canadian soldiers being loaded and unloaded.

The point is this: soldiers have died in this place, but many more have been injured. The United States, which is engaged in its own largely unpopular war in Iraq, still releases injury statistics. Canada does not.
More on link

Answer to David Common's question in the article: Maybe because the CF is sick and tired of the MSM blowing the minor injuries into big issues because they think they have to try to grab the headline in the next day's issue
 
Conference of Defence Associations' Talking Points on the Afghan Mission:
http://www.cda-cdai.ca/CDA_Commentary/CDA%20Afghan%20talking%20points%20EN%20FR.pdf

Mark
Ottawa
 
Bring our soldiers home. They are dying for no reason. If its gods will let it be. Our soldiers are fighting a battle for peace, yet when peace is restored after years and years, it will all spark up once again. We will notfix this problem. Only kill husbands, wives, fathers, brothers, sisters. I would like to say that it will not help in the long run, and only delay the inevitable. Third world countries fight because that is what they do. We will not change this maybe slow it down, but that is all. I hate saying this I really do but alot of countries have been fighting long before we thought to go in and save the world.
 
Corby
It's a good thing the men and women of 1939-45 didn't say the same thing about the situation in Europe. The US tried to stay out of it but eventually they couldn't because the war was destabilizing the civilized world. If we let this go in AFK it will eventually show up back here on our doorstep again. Your sentiments are ostrichlike and do a dishonour to those who have already given their lives in this cause. We must stay the course and help this nation to her feet. If no one else the women and children of AFK deserve our help.
 
Yes this is some what true. I do feel bad for the women and children. But this country will fight years after we are even involved. I have one question for you...will the fighting ever stop.
 
Has not the CF had missions lasting 30+ years, just to help people sort things out.....why would this be any different?
 
Death and destruction is what the world is made up of. Sad but true...But then again i am diagnosed with Major Depression and Anxiety. So maybe I am wrong lol
 
MarkOttawa said:
Fatalities.  Plus George Bush.

Mark
Ottawa

Humpt....you weren't supposed to tell the truth!!  ;D
 
corby7 said:
Yes this is some what true. I do feel bad for the women and children. But this country will fight years after we are even involved. I have one question for you...will the fighting ever stop.

- Apparently, things may get much much worse before they get better:

KJV, Mat 24:6
"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:
see that ye be not troubled:
for all [these things] must come to pass,
but the end is not yet."

KJV, Mat 24:7
"For nation shall rise against nation,
and kingdom against kingdom:
and there shall be famines,
and pestilences,
and earthquakes,
in divers places."

KJV,Mat 24:8
"All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. "

- Buckle up, buttercups!

:D
 
corby7 said:
Death and destruction is what the world is made up of. Sad but true...But then again i am diagnosed with Major Depression and Anxiety. So maybe I am wrong lol

- You picked a fine website to visit to cheer yourself up!

:D

- Fact is, we ain't all that bad.

8)
 
corby7 said:
Yes this is some what true. I do feel bad for the women and children. But this country will fight years after we are even involved. I have one question for you...will the fighting ever stop.

Yes I think it will but we have to be there long enought to make a difference. When ordinary people's lives are seen to be better and the security they need is realized people will not want to go back to a state of fear.It takes time and patience, hard work and blood (unfortunatly). The Taliban and drug lords will not give up easily, they will have to be routed out and dealt with...that takes time and a mindset needs to be altered.
 
corby7 said:
Death and destruction is what the world is made up of. Sad but true...But then again i am diagnosed with Major Depression and Anxiety. So maybe I am wrong lol

So you also agree that the UN should get out of peace keeping because all it does is to delay the inevitable war between the different groups?
 
IN HOC SIGNO said:
Yes I think it will but we have to be there long enought to make a difference. When ordinary people's lives are seen to be better and the security they need is realized people will not want to go back to a state of fear.It takes time and patience, hard work and blood (unfortunatly). The Taliban and drug lords will not give up easily, they will have to be routed out and dealt with...that takes time and a mindset needs to be altered.

Brian Stewart with a very informative report at the 22 minute mark.

http://www.cbc.ca/national/latestbroadcast.html
 
Zell_Dietrich said:
I've given this thread a quick sweep,  I don't know if anyone has brought up the report to Parliament on the progress in Afghanistan.
http://geo.international.gc.ca/cip-pic/afghanistan/docs/260207_Report_E.pdf (En francais: http://geo.international.gc.ca/cip-pic/afghanistan/docs/260207_Report_F.pdf )

In fact I've found tonnes of usefull information at http://geo.international.gc.ca/cip-pic/afghanistan/menu-en.aspx  If this is a duplicate post, I apologise - I'm just posting this here because I finally swayed an acquaintance of mine,  who works for the NDP, using the very facts found in the report to Parliament.  (I know it is a few months old,  but still usefull)
I have to say I didn't know this report existed but I think it should be required reading for all canadians, whether your anti-war(whatever the hell that means, just because you think something isnt right doesnt make it go away) or you truly believe in everthing canada is supposed to stand for, this at least will provide you with an overview of the situation.
 
Stout: A post by Damian Brooks at The Torch:

Say it with me...DE-VEL-OP-MENT
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/10/say-it-with-mede-vel-op-ment.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
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