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Afghanistan: Why we should be there (or not), how to conduct the mission (or not) & when to leave

sgf: By willingly accepting in 2005 that our main effort would shift from Kabul to Kandahar (under US OEF, not NATO, for the first half of 2006) we certainly did "start" something for which we bear some moral responsibility.

Mark
Ottawa
 
MarkOttawa said:
sgf: By willingly accepting in 2005 that our main effort would shift from Kabul to Kandahar (under US OEF, not NATO, for the first half of 2006) we certainly did "start" something for which we bear some moral responsibility.

Mark
Ottawa

thats right we were there indeed under US OEF, so it was the states that started this
 
sgf: I rather think it was al Qaeda with the willing acquiesence of the Taliban ::).

Mark
Ottawa
 
regardless of who started this, we seem to be agreed that it was not Canada
 
sgf said:
regardless of who started this, we seem to be agreed that it was not Canada

When they say "finish what you started", it doesn't refer to Canada being the aggressor or the one who started the fighting. It is in reference to us going over and helping. Think of it this way: UK, Canada, Soviet Union et al. didn't start WW2, but they did start a commitment to fight and to defeat the Germans, and they didn't give up after Germany took control of France, so they finished what they had started. If we leave Afghanistan we will have left our mission to help the Afghan populace and not finish the mission we started.

What you're doing now is just being petty with semantics.
 
perhaps thats how you read the blog, it wasnt the way i read it.
 
I seem to recall the Liberal Government of the day firing up a battle group and launching it into Kandahar in January 2002 under US command...or have all the Dion apologists forgotten that?
 
sure the liberals did that, and i feel they were wrong.
 
sgf: So, when there was general international agreement that a regime that harboured those who had engaged in the worst acts, ever, of international terrorism should be dealt with (as it was by other Afghans, aka the "Northern Alliance" with outside air and special forces support, no "invasion" by ground troops), Canada should not in 2002 have taken part in what was then seen (wrongly as it has turned out) as a mopping-up operation?

Wrong?  Why do you "feel" that?

Mark
Ottawa
 
Toronto Star:    http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/302028


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'The House supports continuation of Canada's current responsibility ...'
An edited version of the government motion on the mission in Afghanistan

Whereas, as set out in the Speech from the Throne, the House does not believe that Canada should simply abandon the people of Afghanistan after February 2009; that Canada should build on its accomplishments and shift to accelerate the training of the Afghan army and police so that the government of Afghanistan can defend its own sovereignty and ensure that progress in Afghanistan is not lost and that our international commitments and reputation are upheld;

whereas in February 2002, the government took a decision to deploy 850 troops to Kandahar, the Canadian Forces have served in various capacities and locations in Afghanistan since that time and, on May 17, 2006, the House adopted a motion to support a two-year extension of Canada's deployment in Afghanistan;

whereas the House welcomes the Report of the Independent Panel on Canada's Future Role in Afghanistan, chaired by John Manley, and recognizes the important contribution they have made;

whereas their report establishes clearly that security is an essential condition of good governance and lasting development and that, for best effect, all three components of a comprehensive strategy – military, diplomatic and development – need to reinforce each other;

whereas the government accepts the analysis and recommendations of the panel and is committed to taking action, including revamping Canada's reconstruction and development efforts to give priority to direct, bilateral project assistance that addresses the immediate, practical needs of the Afghan people, especially in Kandahar;

whereas the results of progress in Afghanistan, including Canada's military deployment, will be reviewed in 2011 and, in advance, the government will provide to the House an assessment and evaluation of progress, drawing on and consistent with the panel's recommendations regarding performance standards, results, benchmarks and timelines;

therefore, the House supports the continuation of Canada's current responsibility for security in Kandahar beyond February 2009, to the end of 2011, in a manner fully consistent with the UN mandate on Afghanistan, but with increasing emphasis on training the Afghan National Security Forces expeditiously to take increasing responsibility for security in Kandahar and Afghanistan as a whole so that, as the Afghan National Security Forces gain capability, Canada's combat role should be commensurately reduced, on condition that:

(a) Canada secure a partner that will provide a battle group of approximately 1,000 to arrive and be operational no later than February 2009, to expand International Security Assistance Force's security coverage in Kandahar;

(b) to better ensure the safety and effectiveness of the Canadian contingent, the government secure medium helicopter lift capacity and high performance Unmanned Aerial Vehicles for intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance before February 2009.

 
Too early to decide Afghan mission end date: Tories
Updated Mon. Feb. 11 2008 4:04 PM ET
CTV.ca News Staff

Despite tabling a motion last week calling for troops to stay in Afghanistan until 2011, the Conservative government isn't willing to call that a withdrawal date.

Government House Leader Peter Van Loan said the Tories don't want to tie the hands of future governments by specifying a hard-and-fast end to Canada's mission to Afghanistan.

Responding to a barrage of Liberal questions about whether the Conservatives are trying to set the scene for a never-ending war in Afghanistan, Van Loan said that deciding an end date was not the most important task at hand.

"You cannot have peace and security in that country until we advance the mission we have," he said, adding that includes continuing in a combat and training role until Afghans are able to handle the own security.

NDP Leader Jack Layton, meanwhile, wants Canada to withdraw its troops by February 2009, and the Liberals are meeting Monday night to work out the final details on their own motion on the mission.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has signalled it will be a confidence matter, meaning the government would fall and an election would be triggered if the opposition parties united to vote it down.

Liberal motion to be discussed Monday

It won't come to a vote until March, but there is expected to be lengthy debate over the motion in the House of Commons. Dion is expected to outline a set of amendments to the Conservative motion when he meets with his caucus tonight -- setting the course for those debates.

Liberals told CP the plan will address areas that they feel were ignored or largely forgotten by the Tory plan -- likely suggesting a greater focus on diplomacy, development and support, as opposed to combat.

Dion has maintained that the combat mission must end in February 2009 as scheduled, and he is expected to stick to this position.

Meanwhile, Liberal foreign affairs critic Bob Rae said Monday that Canada's mission in Afghanistan must shift its focus to training and development, or face failure.

Rae, who hopes to win a seat as an MP in the riding of Toronto Centre, said Canada's military focus simply isn't working.

"We have to get real about how difficult this mission is and how it's not being shared in NATO," Rae told CTV's Canada AM.

More troops from France?

Rae's comments followed Defence Minister Peter MacKay's recent meetings with NATO defence ministers in Vilnius, Lithuania, where he was actively trying to solicit additional troops to help the Canadian Forces in the south of Afghanistan.

A recent report by a panel headed by John Manley said Canada should only stay past the February 2009 deadline if NATO sends 1,000 more troops to help in the region.

During the Lithuania meetings, France suggested it will send more troops to the south, but a report published in French newspaper Le Figaro on Monday suggested that sending troops to southern Afghanistan is only one of four options the French are considering.

The newspaper said French President Nicolas Sarkozy would decide "within a few days," but would not make any announcements until the NATO summit in Bucharest in early April, and that the president seems very committed to the Afghan mission.

After France first indicated its willingness to help last week, members of the prime minister's staff and the Department of National Defence travelled to Paris to meet with French officials as a follow-up to MacKay's discussions with French Defence Minister Herve Morin.

MacKay returned to Canada on Sunday from a corresponding meeting with U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates and his other foreign counterparts in Vilnius, Lithuania.

While in Vilnius, Gates' offered a stern warning to members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, most of whom have not contributed any of their combined 3 million troops to the Afghanistan effort, that NATO could become a "two-tier" organization if more countries don't share the burden.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080210/Afghan_nato_080211/20080211?hub=TopStories
 
General Mackenzie comments on the proposed Liberal mission parameters

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080213.wcorules13/BNStory/specialComment/home

Commentary
Not in my worst nightmares ...

LEWIS MACKENZIE

From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

February 13, 2008 at 6:20 AM EST

Imagine, in a close election, the Liberal Party led by Stéphane Dion regains power with a slim plurality. Within 24 hours, Chief of the Defence Staff Rick Hillier is issued new Rules of Engagement (ROE) for the Canadian Forces serving in Afghanistan. These are immediately passed to the Canadian commander in Kandahar and on to the battle group commander. The Lieutenant-Colonel tells his soldiers the ROE are effective immediately, and adds his comments:

Rule 1. You will no longer attempt to eliminate the insurgency threat to the vast majority of the local population in Kandahar province.

"That will be left to soldiers from other countries yet to be identified. You will redirect your efforts to being nice. Your commander will explain how this will be achieved."

Rule 2. You will provide security for the local population and construction projects but you will not engage in combat to do so.

"If you served in Bosnia, you will know how to do this. If not, others will show you how to place yourself in a dangerously exposed position between the attacker and the people you are protecting. That way, the attackers will have to go through you and you will be allowed to fire at them in self-defence. Yes, it sounds ridiculous, but remember, the people who gave us this order must know something we don't.

Rule 3. There will be no more "search and destroy" missions by Canadians.

"You will note the order says no more search and destroy missions. That being the case, I interpret the order to permit us to conduct "search" missions on even days of the month and "destroy" missions on odd days.

To make this easy to remember in the heat of battle - sorry, I meant while observing the enemy ... darn, I meant our nemesis, the Taliban - you will receive colour-coded ammunition. "Search days" will have blue bullets, with 50 per cent of them being blanks spread randomly in your magazines. Our superiors feel this gives the Taliban a more level field on which to fight.

On "destroy days," there will be red bullets and even though you can only fire them for two hours in any 24-hour period, we will at least have some opportunities to disrupt the Taliban's strategic objective, which is to retake Kandahar city.

Rule 4. Don't count on assistance from tanks and artillery or allied air-to-ground fire if you get into difficulty.

"Those weapon systems are much too warlike and really turn off the NDP who are supporting the new government.

It's going to be hard working around this caveat, but I promise to give it some thought and get back to you.

Rule 5. You are precluded from engaging in aggressive combat operations.

"We are serving as one of 11 national military contingents under NATO. The commander's mission is to defeat the insurgency and expand the secure areas in southern Afghanistan. When he tasks us to assist in such operations, I will be the one to give him the bad news that we don't do things like that any more."

Rule 6. As usual, politics, religion and sex will not be discussed during quiet periods. This rule also applies to these Rules of Engagement.

"No comment and stop snickering!"

When soldiers put their lives on the line, they expect the political direction they receive to make sense and be achievable.

During the times I reported to the United Nations as a field commander, I was appalled at the incomprehensibility of some of the orders issued from that organization. Never in my wildest nightmares did I believe a political party in my own country could conceive of options equally bizarre.

Training the Afghan army and protecting development and reconstruction operations without the security provided by pro-active military operations by Canadian soldiers significantly increases the risk to life and limb.

Retired Major-General Lewis MacKenzie was the first commander of UN peacekeeping forces in Sarajevo

Recommend this article?
 
Heh!

Don't you love Gen Lewis MacKenzie?
Cut thru the BS and says it like he sees it!

That's my man!

CHIMO!
 
"During the times I reported to the United Nations as a field commander, I was appalled at the incomprehensibility of some of the orders issued from that organization."

The quote of the century for those of us who loathe the UN and all it's platitudes bickering and hand wringing
 
seeing as MacKenzie ran for the tories, i can hardly see him endorse any liberal mission parameters. he is more than biased.
 
Thucydides said:
General Mackenzie comments on the proposed Liberal mission parameters

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080213.wcorules13/BNStory/specialComment/home

Ahhh, there is a reason why this soldier and General has the hearts still of many of us soldiers... 

:salute:

If you read this Sir, many thanks!
 
sgf said:
seeing as MacKenzie ran for the tories, i can hardly see him endorse any liberal mission parameters. he is more than biased.

Since he did not get ellected and is not a serving politician of any party, he is free to say whats on his mind with no party "spin". I wouldnt call that being biassed.
 
I like MacKenzie, hes a very smart guy, isnt afraid to speak his mind. I still think hes biased tho
 
A "poetic" interpretation of Lew MacKenzie's article:

ROE, ROE, ROE your troops
Gently brief the team,
Merrily, merrily,
Merrily, merrily,
War is but a dream.

Mark
Ottawa
 
sgf said:
I like MacKenzie, hes a very smart guy, isnt afraid to speak his mind. I still think hes biased tho

We all are....  aren't you?
 
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