Air Combat Systems Officer ( ACSO )

[TechCrmn]

Hey Dapaterson,

Thank you for your reply. When you say "qualified" do you mean qualified ACSO (wings) or qualified on type? (FWSAR, MH, LRP, etc)

Thanks again

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Aircrew Allowance

205.32(1) (Intent) Aircrew Allowance (Monthly) is financial compensation paid for the performance of assigned duties where there is continual and substantial exposure to the environmental conditions associated with flying operations.

205.32(2) (Definition) In this instruction, “aircrew” means:

(a) a pilot who is paid under CBI 204.215 (Pay – Officers – Pilots – Lieutenant Colonel, Major and Captain);

(b) a member who is aircrew badge qualified and current in the operation of aircraft or airborne equipment to the standard that is established from time to time by or under the authority of the CDS; or

(c) a member who is flight crew badge or specialist flight crew badge qualified and current to the standard that is established from time to time by or under the authority of the CDS.

205.32(3) (Entitlement) Subject to paragraph (4), an aircrew member of the Regular Force or of the Reserve Force who is on either Class “B” or “C” Reserve Service is entitled to this allowance if all of the following conditions are satisfied:

(a) the aircrew member occupies a designated position for the purposes of this instruction;

(b) the aircrew member reports for duty in the designated aircrew position; and

(c) the member is not disentitled under CBI 205.29 (Environmental Allowances Matrix) or CBI 10.3.08 (Environmental Allowances).

205.32(4) (No Entitlement) There is no entitlement to this allowance if an event provided in paragraph (2) of CBI 205.15 (No Entitlement — Common Events) occurs.

205.32(5) (Amount) The amount of this allowance is:

(a) for a full month of entitlement, the monthly rate set out in the Table to this instruction;

(b) for less than a month of entitlement, the amount calculated by the formula

[ ( A ÷ 30 ) × N ]

where

A is the monthly rate set out in the Table to this instruction, and

N is the number of days in that month that the aircrew is entitled to this allowance.

(TB 1 June 2017, effective 1 September 2017)


Back before the 2017 changes, when I was on Sqn waiting MOAT we were entitled to AIRCRA as we were Wings qual'd, awaiting training and posted to a flying Sqn.  Now, it's as per above.

 

[TechCrmn]

Aircrew Allowance

205.32(1) (Intent) Aircrew Allowance (Monthly) is financial compensation paid for the performance of assigned duties where there is continual and substantial exposure to the environmental conditions associated with flying operations.

205.32(2) (Definition) In this instruction, “aircrew” means:

(a) a pilot who is paid under CBI 204.215 (Pay – Officers – Pilots – Lieutenant Colonel, Major and Captain);

(b) a member who is aircrew badge qualified and current in the operation of aircraft or airborne equipment to the standard that is established from time to time by or under the authority of the CDS; or

(c) a member who is flight crew badge or specialist flight crew badge qualified and current to the standard that is established from time to time by or under the authority of the CDS.

205.32(3) (Entitlement) Subject to paragraph (4), an aircrew member of the Regular Force or of the Reserve Force who is on either Class “B” or “C” Reserve Service is entitled to this allowance if all of the following conditions are satisfied:

(a) the aircrew member occupies a designated position for the purposes of this instruction;

(b) the aircrew member reports for duty in the designated aircrew position; and

(c) the member is not disentitled under CBI 205.29 (Environmental Allowances Matrix) or CBI 10.3.08 (Environmental Allowances).

205.32(4) (No Entitlement) There is no entitlement to this allowance if an event provided in paragraph (2) of CBI 205.15 (No Entitlement — Common Events) occurs.

205.32(5) (Amount) The amount of this allowance is:

(a) for a full month of entitlement, the monthly rate set out in the Table to this instruction;

(b) for less than a month of entitlement, the amount calculated by the formula

[ ( A ÷ 30 ) × N ]

where

A is the monthly rate set out in the Table to this instruction, and

N is the number of days in that month that the aircrew is entitled to this allowance.

(TB 1 June 2017, effective 1 September 2017)


Back before the 2017 changes, when I was on Sqn waiting MOAT we were entitled to AIRCRA as we were Wings qual'd, awaiting training and posted to a flying Sqn.  Now, it's as per above.

Great thanks, I guess I should have just looked it up lol

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Great thanks, I guess I should have just looked it up lol

No worries;  I'm with the government and I'm here to help!

 

[TechCrmn]

No worries;  I'm with the government and I'm here to help!

Yea unfortunately sometimes even when you do find the policy it can be a little ambiguous :S For example, the policy states in the case of an ACSO "(b) a member who is aircrew badge qualified and current in the operation of aircraft or airborne equipment to the standard that is established from time to time by or under the authority of the CDS"

The first part is clear in that once you complete the ACSO course you will be aircrew badge qualified and would meet that requirement.

Although the second part current in the operation of aircraft or airborne equipment is not really clear and should refer to the qualification point of the member instead ie. wings, operational functional point(OFP), etc. because technically once you finish your ACSO course you would be current in the operation of airborne equipment just not all airborne equipment as it relates to your specific aircraft type.

Anyway, Eye in The Sky, or anyone else in the know, could you tell me if this currently means new ACSOs would get AIRCRA immediately following wings or if it has changed to after on-type training or in other words OFP?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Eagle_Eye_View]

When you’re ACSO Wing qualifies and posted into a flying line number. Your aircrew start. A lot of us got an aircrew backpay because the RCAF didn’t follow the policy. We used to get aircrew allowance once OFP, but that changed last year I believe.

 

[TechCrmn]

Okay great, that's exactly what I wanted to know! If you don't mind me asking, what platform are you on?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

That was already given;  this part of the CBI.  If you're not posted into a designated flying position, you shouldn't be getting AIRCRA.  While in trg, you should get Casual AIRCRA for the days you fly.  I think the folks on OTU (MOAT for us) no longer get AIRCRA until they're quald and in a flying position on Sqn.

205.32(3) (Entitlement) Subject to paragraph (4), an aircrew member of the Regular Force or of the Reserve Force who is on either Class “B” or “C” Reserve Service is entitled to this allowance if all of the following conditions are satisfied:

(a) the aircrew member occupies a designated position for the purposes of this instruction;

(b) the aircrew member reports for duty in the designated aircrew position; and

(c) the member is not disentitled under CBI 205.29 (Environmental Allowances Matrix) or CBI 10.3.08 (Environmental Allowances).

 

[TechCrmn]

Well technically when a new ACSO is posted to a unit they are posted into a designated flying position( ie SAR O, TACCO, etc) as your position (remar#) at a unit seldom changes once you're there.  A new ACSO will obviously not perform the job until fully qualified on OTU or MOAT but their position on paper and with respect to the CBI is indeed a designated flying position. If part of your duty as a new ACSO is to conduct OTU and MOAT then you could argue that while on trg you are "reporting for duty in the designated aircrew position". Anyway, I know all this theoretical interpretation doesn't really mean much because someone at a much higher pay grade decides how this is applied,  that's just my two cents lol

Thanks again for all of your help!

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I'm 99% sure you can't (shouldn't) be posted into a designated flying position until you're qualified for it; you could be posted to 4XX Sqn, but into a MMO, etc. 

I got AIRCRA as a PAT (Wings grade) while waiting for MOAT, but the CBI has changed since then.  I'm not sure but I think our flyers on MOAT are getting CAS AIRCRA until they're complete, back at the Sqn and moved into a designated crew (flying) posn.  I can verify that Monday.

 

[TechCrmn]

Ah ok, I assumed you were posted to a unit first then the unit sends you on the MOAT, I didnt realize you remained posted to a PAT section until after MOAT or OTU and then you're sent to a unit. When I was talking about positions I was just referring to the actual positions (you see on EMAA, under position finder). When you get posted to a new unit you will actually fill one of these positions regardless if your trainined or not, there is no such thing as a "trainee position" except at a school. The idea is you get posted to a unit with the basic skills then they qualify you the rest of the way, but the entire time if you look on EMAA you are slotted in a TACCO, SARO, etc position right from the get go. But yea I would really appreciate knowing how its actually done if you could inquire! 

 

[dimsum]

Ah ok, I assumed you were posted to a unit first then the unit sends you on the MOAT, I didnt realize you remained posted to a PAT section until after MOAT or OTU and then you're sent to a unit.

You are sent to a unit on OJT prior to MOAT. 

 

[Eagle_Eye_View]

Dimsun,

That’s innacurate, once wing qualified, new ACSOs are posted to Sqn flying line numbers, hence why they are entitled to aircrew allowance without being MOAT qualified. We constantly have this problem with the AES Ops, were a new member comes in, then a qualified member must be posted out to make room for new folks.

This is why a lot of aircrews (including myself) received a back pay of aircrew allowance last year because we were actually entitled to draw it even though we were still awaiting for MOAT.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Dimsun,

That’s innacurate, once wing qualified, new ACSOs are posted to Sqn flying line numbers, hence why they are entitled to aircrew allowance without being MOAT qualified. We constantly have this problem with the AES Ops, were a new member comes in, then a qualified member must be posted out to make room for new folks.

This is why a lot of aircrews (including myself) received a back pay of aircrew allowance last year because we were actually entitled to draw it even though we were still awaiting for MOAT.

And that has changed several times in the past 4-5 years as well;  one year, everyone was entitled to it if they were Wing grade and awaiting training at a Sqn, the next year they weren't.  Enquires were made all the way up the chain, different people were given different answers.  End state - the CBI changed 1 June 2017, effective 1 September 2017.

I don't know specifically about ACSO, but AES Ops coming on Sqn who are not OFP (MOAT qual'd) are not put into a crew flying position.  I think I was the Assisant D/Ops O on paper until after MOAT.  I received AIRCRA from my COS date onward, but the CBI I posted earlier has changed since then (was last updated in Sep 2017).  Aircrew not MOAT qual'd can't hold a flying position on a crew;  I'll hazard a guess that a ACSO who hasn't completed OTU can't occupy the TACCO position on a Cyclone, either.

 

[TechCrmn]

Dimsun,

That’s innacurate, once wing qualified, new ACSOs are posted to Sqn flying line numbers, hence why they are entitled to aircrew allowance without being MOAT qualified. We constantly have this problem with the AES Ops, were a new member comes in, then a qualified member must be posted out to make room for new folks.

This is why a lot of aircrews (including myself) received a back pay of aircrew allowance last year because we were actually entitled to draw it even though we were still awaiting for MOAT.

Ok good to know, thanks!

 

[Zoomie]

The latest direction from DMCA is that unqualified Pers will not fill a line position on the REMAR - they will be on a type of BTL (ATL?) list  and remain there until OFP for that Sqn.  This will eliminate the skewed stats that falsely show a Sqn is manned to xx%.  I am unsure as to how (or if) line squadrons are managing this, YMMV.

If you aren’t OFP and not occupying a flying position, you won’t get AIRCRA.  Even if you are occupying a flying position and don’t actually fly, your AIRCRA will cease - as it does for those who are medically grounded etc.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

TechCrmn

I think it's important to read the entire applic parts of the CBI to get a full understanding of how it is today, vice a few years ago.

CBI Chap 205, Allowances for officers and non-commissioned members

Aside from the applic part for AIRCRA (205.32), you could have a browse thru:

- 205.10 Designated Positions  (if you read this one *to Notes*, it talks about MMO positions/entitlement scenarios); and
- 205.15 No entitlement, common events (this covers when you stop receiving an allowance for TCAT, PCAT, Leave, etc).

 

[Eagle_Eye_View]

Okay that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[TechCrmn]

Ok great, thank you both for all of your help!

 

[5kc11]

Hello,

I apologize if this has been asked. But, I have not been able to find an answer.

Assuming an acso completes their first contract of 9 years. What happens after if they choose to extend?  Does the cycle repeat itself?
Ie
1st tour operational flying post
2nd tour instructional at Winnipeg
3rd staff position.

Or do they tend to stay in a staffing position for the remainder of their career?