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Airstrikes May Have Killed Bin Ladens Number 2 Man

Then there is the picture of an unexploded 155mm shell said to have been used in the attack.

I dunno, Tomahawk.  That looks to me an awful lot like a 105mm round (having humped a few in my time).  Any other gunners want to wade in?

Now, is it:

a) Unrelated to the actual engagment in question, but just a prop for press consumption?

b) from an AC-130 gunship?
 
It's either a 152 or a 155.  The consensus seems to be that the NY Times got the villagers to pose with it so they'd have a photo to go with their story.  The original caption was “Pakistani men with the remains of a missile fired at a house in the Bajur tribal zone near the Afghan border”.  Once enough people pointed out the obvious, the NY Times published this correction.
 
Acorn said:
Anyone remember what the yellow band means?

Yellow band = HE.

Source: US Army,
FM 4-30.13 AMMUNITION HANDBOOK:TACTICS, TECHNIQUES, AND PROCEDURES FOR MUNITIONS HANDLERS

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/4-30-13/appf.htm#figf-5

 
http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060119/pakistan_qaeda_060119

CIA attack kills 3 top al Qaeda members: Pakistan
CTV.ca News Staff

At least three top al Qaeda operatives were believed killed in a U.S. missile strike last week, including an explosives expert on the U.S. most-wanted list, Pakistani security officials said.

The attack is also believed to have killed a close relative of al Qaeda's number two leader, Ayman al-Zawahri.

The security officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, told The Associated Press that Midhat Mursi al-Sayid Umar, 52, an Egyptian, was among the three top al Qaeda figures who were in Damadola village at the time of the attack and whose bodies were believed to have been taken away by sympathizers.

The U.S. Justice Department says on its website that Umar, also known as Abu Khabab al-Masri, is an expert in explosives and poisons who operated a terrorist training camp at Derunta, near the eastern Afghan city of Jalalabad.

The website also says Umar has written training manuals containing recipes for crude chemical and biological weapons, some of which were recovered by U.S. forces in Afghanistan.

The site says Umar's exact whereabouts are unknown but adds that he may be residing in Pakistan, and offers $5 million for information leading to his arrest.

The Pakistani official named two other foreign militants as suspected killed in the missile strike: Abu Obaidah al-Masri, whom he said was the main operations chief for al Qaeda in Afghanistan's eastern Kunar province, which lies opposite Pakistan's Bajur tribal region where Damadola is located; and Abdul Rehman al-Maghribi, a Moroccan and close relative of al-Zawahri, possibly his son-in-law.

Some of the officials also named a fourth man, Khalid Habib, the al Qaeda operations chief along the Afghan-Pakistan border.

The officials say he had planned assassination attacks on Pakistan's President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, and is associated with Abu Farraj al-Libbi, a top al Qaeda figure arrested in northwestern Pakistan in May.

All the officials stressed that none of the militants' bodies have been found.

"We do not have any evidence to prove that they have been killed, but we have indications that they were there and were among those bodies that were taken away," one official told AP.

Pentagon officials said they had no information on the reported identities of the dead and CIA spokesman Tom Crispell said the agency could not comment.

Pakistani officials have said the airstrike targeted, but missed, al-Zawahri, Osama bin Laden's top aide. It also killed 18 local people, outraging many in the Islamic country.

Pakistani Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed said the government believed some foreigners were killed in the attack, but authorities had not retrieved their bodies so their identities have not been confirmed by DNA tests.

"As far as our information is concerned, we confirm that there were some foreigners who were killed," Ahmed told AP. "But regarding their names, we are investigating."

Pakistani Interior Minister Aftab Sherpao told AP on Wednesday that the bodies may have been taken by a local pro-Taliban cleric, Maulana Faqir Mohammed, who also is being hunted by authorities.

Provincial authorities said sympathizers took the bodies of four or five foreign militants to bury them in the mountains near the Afghan border, thereby preventing their identification.

"Efforts are under way to investigate further," said Shah Zaman Khan, director-general of media relations for Pakistan's tribal areas bordering Afghanistan.

He said authorities were also looking for Faqir Mohammed and another prominent pro-Taliban cleric accused of harboring militants. Both men were allegedly in Damadola and survived the assault.

Intelligence officials say al-Zawahri is thought to have sent some of his aides in his place to an Islamic holiday dinner to which he'd been invited in Damadola on the night of the attack.

Hours after the attack, an AP reporter visited the village, which consists of a half-dozen widely scattered houses on a hillside about four miles from the Afghan border.


Residents said then that all the dead were local people and no one had taken any bodies away. However, it appeared feasible that bodies or wounded could have been spirited away in the darkness after the attack, which took place at about 3 a.m.

Islamic custom dictates that bodies be buried as soon as possible, and the reporter saw 13 freshly filled graves with simple headstones and five empty graves alongside them -- apparently prepared for more dead. When the reporter returned the next day, the five empty graves were filled in, apparently because no more bodies had been found in the rubble.

Pakistan maintains it was not given advance word of the airstrike, which was reportedly carried out by unmanned Predator drones flying from Afghanistan, and has condemned it as killing innocent civilians.

Thousands have taken to the streets in protest over the attack, denouncing the U.S. and Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, who ended Pakistan's support of the Taliban regime in late 2001 and has himself been targeted by al Qaeda attacks.
 
Just great another holy warrior is made

And thats just it.
Lets say we did get this guy. Good, he's out of the picture.  How many more enemies did we make this this airstrike that killed women and children. Maybe 5, maybe 18 were killed I don't know what the final tally is.
Big question is was it worth it.  Some people are going to say yes, we got the bad guy. We killed 18 other people but this is a war and casualties will happen.  Faced with that opinion, how many lives are worth this one dudes? 18 bystanders. 50 bystanders.  Is killing osama binladden worth killing 500 or 1500 others by necessity?  Some might argue that just as many if not more innocent people have been killed by accident or by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Hard questions.
It would be nice if we could kill or capture these terrorists on their own but that won't happen often. Their nature is to surround themselves with innocent civilians so that even in death, they find one more way to hurt us.
I'm not so sure airstrikes against drones against whole villages is the best course of action, then again I don't have a better solution.


After that whole bullshit with the master chief, oops I mean Jessica lynch and her "blaze of glory" firefight reported by the American media I'm rather skeptical about believing ANYTHING they report within a few weeks of whatever. I'd rather wait a month or two to see the real truth (or something close) come out.
 
Bull.  These "innocent villiagers" were all attending a celebration.....a celebration that "just happened" to have also been attended by 3 rather important figures of the..."dissenter community".  Right.

Chances are pretty damn good that the individuals who were killed along with these terrorists did not have much love for the US, or us, in the first place.  For terrorists to have been "created" by this act, you have to assume that these people were initialy pro-US, or at least neutral.  Which is highly unlikely.
 
"I'm rather skeptical about believing ANYTHING they report within a few weeks of whatever. I'd rather wait a month or two to see the real truth."

Agreed.  That said anyone sypmathizing with the enemy should believe they are targets as well.
This village was rife with Al Queda (sp) sympathizers.  Now were they there by gunpoint or open arms.  We won't know but I'm glad they hopefully took out the bomb expert who was teaching them how to make Chem wpns.
 
Bull.  These "innocent villiagers" were all attending a celebration.....a celebration that "just happened" to have also been attended by 3 rather important figures of the..."dissenter community".  Right.

Chances are pretty damn good that the individuals who were killed along with these terrorists did not have much love for the US, or us, in the first place.

So unless they love us their our enemies?

Just kidding my friend, twisting your words around a little :)
I do know where you're comming from and I agree.  It's hard to believe everyone in that village is a supporter of the US.  I'm sure many of them shook this dudes hand and acted all buddy buddy with him.

I can't really fault them.  I mean I'm sure it's pretty easy for who we see as terrorists to paint North America and our allies as monsters.  Hell our evil ungodly robots just fired missiles into their village killing women and children.
Do we know there is more to it than that? Of course. This guy was a major asshole who, if kept alive, will no doubt endeavor to kill many more people both North Americans/allies AND his own people if they get in the way.

[See, it's okay for us to kill terrorists and accept civilian deaths but god forbid we put a mass murderer to death who's canadian, theres a small chance he *might* be innocent. We can't just maybe killing one innocent man but we can risk dozens others. Thats another argument though :)  ]

Back to the topic, we know that there are more issues at stake in taking this guy out but these villagers don't.  Their lives are pretty much centered on whats in front of them no?  Some dude comes there, maybe bringing some food and drinks and invites them To a party, so they attend.  We fire missiles killing them.  While I agree that rubbing shoulders with a wanted terrorist is probably not conductive of a long life, these guys are much more simple and not likely to see things the way we do.   What's that mean?  Like CFL said, we took our a bomb expert which will probably save many lives but we also probably created a few more bad guys. Was it worth it?  Thats a matter of opinion.  Brain says yes heart says no for me.

I kinda see these villagers as the Vietnamese villagers during the Vietnam war. Their stuck between terrorists from their homeland, who don't object to killing them if they don't help/ put up with them, and us who are willing to take out a village for the greater good.

Again I don't know exactly how we can do it but I think we'll be doing ourselves a big favor if we find alternative ways of taking these bad guys out. I know thats a pretty big pipe dream though and not very realistic given the theater's we are in.
 
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