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Al-Jazeera TV broadcasts video of captured U.S. troops

IRAQ broke the geneva convention in 91. Tourtured prisoners yadda yadda. Nothing was done by the allies. (that im aware of anyways).

Maybe soldiers would be less likely to break the convention if they were held accountable for their actions. An order or rule with out the backing of force (or equilivent) is just a suggestion.
 
Well... I‘m not the only one who‘s had it with the whiner. Personally, I think he‘s just a trouble-maker who likes to stir $hit... that or he is really stupid... or both ???
Pugil, i‘ve learned you‘re in the RMR... that was the unit I was in 20 years ago. I still know a few people there... hmmm.
Marauder, there are plenty of Americans who do not support the Pres, yet there are many French-Canadians who do (myself being one, and a large number of others I know), there are whiners everywhere, just watch the news...
Finally, regarding the reference to the Afghan prisonners in Guantanamo, they are not POWs because they were not part of an organised military force.
 
Jungle,
Oh well, I see that you dont like me but that is fine. Ill stand up to my opinion whenever it is necessary. I know that my arguments can disturb you conscience and your war rhetoric, but that is not my problem. How lovely it is when you say that we should "liberate" the Iraqis people from Saddam and install a democratic government, a country thousands of miles away, when here you cant even respect the difference of opinion of the guy next door. :confused:
 
I don‘t think anybody here likes you... get over it and move on. I respect everybody‘s opinion, until the same opinion is expressed every time they join a topic. We all knew your opinion on this subject after about 27 posts... the next 35 were irritating to everyone (I didn‘t really count them, just making a point). If you have nothing interesting to bring to a topic, stay out of it.
Finally, I suggest you start paying attention to the few of us who have experience around here. While I suspect you have never been on an operation, I have been around the world on training and operations, and participated in the "liberation" of the world‘s youngest country. I probably wore a UN beret for longer than you have been in the CF, and I won‘t talk about the Maroon beret.
So in your own words:
You wanted that war, now you have it so suck it up!!!
 
**I have been around the world on training and operations, and participated in the "liberation" of the world‘s youngest country. I probably wore a UN beret for longer than you have been in the CF, and I won‘t talk about the Maroon beret.**

I have nothing but praises and admirations for you (Im not being ironic)


**I respect everybody‘s opinion, until the same opinion is expressed every time they join a topic. We all knew your opinion on this subject after about 27 posts... the next 35 were irritating to everyone.**

You speak for yourself, I have noticed that you too participated alot in the Iraqi debate, dont get me wrong. The only difference is that I seem to be the only guy to be publictly against this war in this forum. I dont expect anyone to defend my cause in this forum, so I stand on my ground.

Thats it for me, I dont want to get into a childish fight. You can reply to me if you want but I wont go any futher in this debate. " L‘affaire est clos"
 
Pugil, mind if i ask exactly why you are against the war?
I was largely anti-war before it started then i got to do a lot of thinking. I‘m just curious about your take on it.
 
Yes, it‘s not nice for the Iraqi regime to take the video, etc. But, you have to remember a couple of things:

1. you are dealing with another culture that sees death far more frequently that we do, and how they deal with it is completely different as well,

2. the regime is under seige, and they are going to resort to such tactics when the $hit hits the fan and they realize that their days are numbered, and

3. to them, the Geneva Convention, as with most things, is seen as just another document produced by rich western nations for rich western nations.

Given the above, it is not, nor should it have been, surprising that those photos came out -- it was merely a matter of time. If you want to understand their behaviour and why they do things a certain way, you need to start seeing/understanding things from their perspective.

And, you can split hairs about what the US (or Western media) does or does not do (re: PWs and photos of the dead), it won‘t matter. To them, they are the victims, and the US soldiers (whether dead or alive) are the aggressors. Is US gov‘s crying foul going to do anything to change the Iraqi regime‘s behaviour?

My two cents: I still think the Bush and coalition went in far too early. There could have been more diplomatic ways of resolving this issue. And yes, I still question the legitimacy of the war and even the justifications of it (i.e freedom, regime change, WMD, oil, regional stability, etc). And I think the OP NAME of IRAQI FREEDOM is a poor attempt at humour and to win over a moronic audience of TV viewers.

However, now that they are there and are slugging it out, I hope they do well and clear this f~ckin‘ mess up as quickly as possible.
 
I question whether the validity of Geneva Convention applies in this war, considering that to my knowledge, Geneva Convention applies to countries formally at war with each other.

To my knowledge, no formal declaration of war has been issued by US or UK.
 
Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, 75 U.N.T.S. 135, entered into force Oct. 21, 1950

Part 1, Article 2 "...In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance. "

Here‘s the link, with lots of POW answers POWs
 
Ghost778,

Here are my arguments

1.) Deal with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict fist-- The intifada lasted for more than 2 years, this conflict should be the priority for the Bush administration. It is the roots for all the anti-american sentiment in the arab world

2.) Iraq is not an imminent threat-- What threat Iraq can have when 60,000 of his troops surrendered during the fist days of Desert storm? What threat it is when when his troops even surrendered to unmanned planes? A little comparison, the budget of defense of the Iraqi army is around 1, 7 billion compared to 500 billions for the US. The Iraqi army doesnt have any projection power, it doesnt a modern air force, an inexistant navy and their army is poorly equiped and trained. The coalition forces destroyed 50% of his strentgh during the fist Gulf war. We are far the fearsome german army during WW2.

3.) A war on Iraq will raise the anti-american sentiment in the Arab world-- Indeed it will legitimate the terrorist cause, it will prove that the US is trying to humiliate the muslim world. Al-Quaida and all the terrorists group will get support or even worst backing from some states.

4.) How many UN resolutions did Israel violate by 1992? A: Over 65
How many nuclear warheads does Israel have?
A: Over 400
How many many nuclear warhead does Iraq have?<
A: 0
** Why Iraq not israel?

5.) "Iraq had in fact, been disarmed to a level unprecedented in modern history." Scott Ritter, UNSCOM chief, December 1998

The inspections were working, indeed it destroyed more missiles during the 12 years than the allied had during the Gulf war. Hanx Blix only asked for a COUPLE of months to fully disarm Iraq. What hurt it is to wait for some months when we had waited for 12 years?


Finally, it is a noble cause to claim to liberate Iraq from Saddam Hussein. Personnally I DONT like Saddam like the vast majority of people, but I believe that it is not the time to launch a war when Al-Quaida is still active, when there is a rise in anti-american sentiment not only in the Arab countries but all around the world, when people are still dying in the Israeli-Palestinian conflit. Iraq is not our priority for now, get the arab on our side and then we can start to think to liberate the poor Iraqis people from Saddam.
 
*cough* :rolleyes: *cough* Ya wonder if we are all on the same side here hmmmm?? :rolleyes:
 
Good points Pugil.

For agument sake, how could the US fix whats happening in Israel?
I don‘t think anything less then nato going in (And i say nato because if its americans only ,they‘re going to be a constant attack for suicide bombers) and disarming both sides will have any hope of success.
Aside from trying to squash palistine Israel hasn‘t tried to invade many countries.

You said we waited 12 years for iraq, what harm could waiting a few more months be? Well that makes sense. You could also say what harm could it be waiting another 12 years? It‘s like having a health problem that doesnt seem too serious. "I‘ll go get it checked next week, next month". By the time you get around to doing anything it went from a harmless lump to something fatal.

Aside from the fact that hussain is evil and has no regard for human life i think the americans are starting to see the light. Theres a lot of evil in the world and sooner or later $hits going to hit the fan, its better that we are the agressors rather then us waiting around to be attacked.

People have said, myself included, that in 91 the allies rolled over iraq. What kind of resistance can they put up this time? I could be mistaken but i think a heck of a lot more vehicles are being lost this time around. M1 tanks, appache gunships etc.. For being so weak their doing a **** of a job fighting the most powerful military in the world.

I don‘t think we will ever wipe out al-quaida. ITs a religion, a way of thinking. Thats impossible to wipe out. Theres going to be a next ossama bin ladden to pick up where he left off. HE may not even believe in the same thing but he will see the power and resources that are just waiting to be tapped into and for allah or himself he‘ll use it.
A good example is the book Battle field earth. I never finished it, got about 3 quarters of the way through it but in the book hundreds of years in the future most of the human race is wiped out and they are slowly starting over. Someone found some history books about hitler and to him this hitler guy and his ideas seemed like a great great thing so he started preaching fascism. Same way romans couldn‘t stamp out christianity.

To answer your question why iraq and not israel. Simple. The US has more to gain by defeating iraq. Thats not to say the US is bad. Thats just how it is.
 
Ghost778,

You are right on many things. No doubt Saddam will always stay evil. But the real question we should all ask, Is this the right moment to attack? Some governments threw the towel very quickly on diplomacy. Im not against all wars, some war are good. It is easy to say that we go to liberate the Iraqis, it is like if we speak on their behalf. If the US had strong and convicing arguments why couldnt they even convince the poorest and least influencial countries that were on the security council to vote for a new resolution? Making war is not like playing a Risk Board game, you know when it starts but you dont know when it ends. When force is necessary it SHOULD be used with coercion and reassurance. The Arabs feel threatned more than ever by the US. It will be the basis for all the hatred against the US, it will make the terrorists group even more stronger.

________________________________________________
I don‘t think we will ever wipe out al-quaida. ITs a religion, a way of thinking
_______________________________________________

True, but we can marginalize it. For now Al-Qaida is supported by no goverment from the Arab world publictly. It is seen as a radical groups and it is supported by only a minority, most arabs still embrace the Western culture. But it can gain support if the war on Iraq drags for months and more civilians are killed. Radical political parties can gain more power and support. I think that is where the danger lies.
 
There are a number of interesting points being brought forward. I like to use a shotgun approach and address a number of them from my point of view. So in no apparent order:

So everyone knows where I stand, Canada should be a part of the coalition force, not because we of potential backlash of the US, but because it is the right thing to do. Our troops putting their life on the line to protect business interests is grotesque. As for standing with our American brothers because they would stand with us. Does anyone remember (not that long ago) an American general quoted as saying if Canada didn’t participate in the new “Star Wars” why should they stop a missile from hitting Ottawa. The either you are with us or against us is refusing us the exercise our own sovereignty. By telling other nations to expel Iraqis from Embassy, and when they refuse, accuse them of harboring terrorist didn’t gain them much support either. It is the walking softly and carrying the big stick policy, only without the walking softly.

As I said we should be a part of the coalition, however, I question the timing. First of all Saddam is a brutal dictator and deserves to be removed. Secondly, war is the bluntest instrument of national policy and should be used as a last resort, or self-defense. Is this the case here. If the US had followed up on the Canadian compromise, a deadline would have been set and consequences set out. Officials have stated that two or three weeks more would have made no difference. With the US no wanting to invest the extra time, they probably lost support when they needed it the most. Resolution 1444 had consequences attached that would have justified the invasion, but on a UN based deadline not US. The Canadian proposal would have set the deadline. As a matter of self-defense, there has never been a link between Al-Qaida and Baghdad. So this argument doesn’t wash. And this is not a war of liberation. To be liberated, you first must be occupied. Not run by your own dictator

What happens after the war. Who sets up the new Iraqis regime. The US shed blood to get to that point, so they will justifiably have a major say. Or do they pass it over to the UN. (Probably not). However, with so many opposing factions, the potential for another Afghanistan lurks on the horizon. And suppose the Iraqis democratically elect an Muslim cleric. What then. Right now the coalition is busy removing the devil we know and replacing him for a devil we don’t.

Whether the Americans like or not, they have failed to make the point yet war is not about oil. However, the oil fields are constantly mentioned. Rumsfeld went as far to say it would be a war crime for Iraqis to touch their “own” oilfields. If the Americans so badly wanted a northern front, why are they so insistent that the Turks stay out and not to move without US permission. Or is it because of the proximity of the northern oil fields.

Truth is the first casualty of war, and its showing here real time. Is not a showing of POW a part of reporting the news. The Americans are edgy, not because of the Geneva Convention, but because of Somalia. The US media are the first to jump on the freedom of the press, but seem to be practicing self- censorship but deciding what the public should or should not see. Is this unbiased reporting. A projectile lands in a market during daytime, and it may be a errant coalition missile or the Iraqis themselves. Nothing substantiated. Iraqis say the have shot down three Apaches, but the media annotates that the Iraqis have shown no proof. The Vice Chief of Staff states the American prisoners have been executed, but no proof is asked for or offered. The media has just become another branch of the Public Affairs. What we see is not necessary what we get.

As for war crimes, the Iraqis seemed to be engaged in several, but yesterday civilians were shot driving up and possible through a checkpoint. Where they aware of the new ROE. It may have been justified because of the car bomb incident, but innocents died doing what the normal do in their own country. It is becoming a dirty war, and nobody will escape. And the car bomb incident – war crime, terrorist act or resistance to an invasion of their homeland. And the target was combatants.

What happens to the UN now? Is the US going to bypass when it does not serve in its own interest. Or is the US going to dictate the world order. The UN is a forum of necessary compromise and when sides (France is just a s responsible for a total no war stance) refuse, the body becomes impotent. The UN must make resolutions with consequences, and must follow through when defied.

I have probably stir something up, but the main point is we all support the troops overseas, and pray causalities (all sides) stay at a minimum (I personally now some of the troops over there). Nor am I anti-American. I am just pointing out some contradictions and points that should be pondered. Everyone has an opinion and should not follow someone else’s blindly. Governments must think long and hard before putting them into harms way. I think the cause is justified (Hussein would never of complied) but the timing is suspect. And has a dangerous precedent being started where the US picks and chooses the bad guy. As well has the Christian West stirred up the Muslim East?
 
Adding to the oil point. If this was a war against WMD, why has North Korea escaped the same harsh rhetoic as Saddam. It is documented they have more potential for nuclear weapons and delivery systems then Iraq ever could or would. But they are treated like kids gloves. Reason -lack of oil, Hussain an easier target, or this time next year we will be engaged in the same arguments, but WRT mountain warefare as opposed to desert warefare. Who knows, but I have a feeling the US will be dictating the path.
 
Whether the Americans like or not, they have failed to make the point yet war is not about oil. However, the oil fields are constantly mentioned. Rumsfeld went as far to say it would be a war crime for Iraqis to touch their “own” oilfields. If the Americans so badly wanted a northern front, why are they so insistent that the Turks stay out and not to move without US permission. Or is it because of the proximity of the northern oil fields.
Well they want to keep the turks out of northern Iraq because the turks are sworn enemies of the kurds, who dwell in northern Iraq. If the Turks cross the border the kurds will be right pissed off and now you have second war/conflict on your hands.
 
Great post RCA. I agree 100%, i just can‘t word it as intelligently as you ;) I try and see things as good and evil, black and white but i know thats not how things are. For every good point brought up about the US invading iraq theres also a bad one. Saddam is evil but we need oil. They use suicide bombers and we‘ve shot innocent people by accident.

"If the US had strong and convicing arguments why couldnt they even convince the poorest and least influencial countries that were on the security council to vote for a new resolution"

This is something i would disagree with. Once people have their minds set up theres often very little that can be done to change it. Saddams army uses women and children as human shields, just the other day one woman tried to run away and infront of US troops was shot in the back and rolled into the river. (Which obviously reporters who cover EVERYTHING from bombings to camels throwing a crap somehow missed). To me i see that and say, **** those guys are pretty heartless but to the peace protesters they have an excuse. Saddam is just trying to defend his country, its okay for him to shoot people who are trying to run away. They can pretty much justify anything. Long story shot we could have waited another 12 years and i dont think it would have mattered, only saddam would have had 12 more years to build up his army and plan something naughty
 
Logistik, I partial agree with you WRT the Kurds and Turks. And this potentially another fallout when the power vacuum occures when Saddam moves out. However oil is still also very much part of this equation.
 
Couple of things...

Israel is allowed to keep nukes for the same reason Britain and France are allowed to keep nukes, because Israel is a legitimate democracy not run my lunatics (like Saddam).

There‘s a lot of overblown rhetoric about this being a war for oil, yet I have not once heard any of the "war for oil" boosters explain to me exactly how the US will take over Iraq‘s oil reserves. Afghanistan was supposed to be about the US building some kind of oil pipeline, but considering the fact that there‘s still a lot of shooting going on over there, nothing has yet martilalized. So after over one year Afghanistan is still too unstable for oil companies to invest in it. George Bush is up for re-election 19 months from now. Will Iraq be stable enough for oil companies to invest in by that time? Even if they do start investing in Iraq, how many extra months will it take for the US economy to see the benefits of all this oil? Will it happen in time for the economy to turn around and Bush to get re-elected? Considering all that and considering the money spent on this war, I say no. The only comprehensive study I ever heard on this subject was done by economics professors at Harvard University who said it would take 2 to 7 years for the US to profit from Iraqi oil (although since I can‘t find a link for it I could just be making it up, you‘ll have to take my word).

Although I don‘t think anyone mentioned this I‘ll say a bit about it anyway. Is this war about Bush taking the American publics mind off of the poor job he‘s doing as President on the home front? Maybe. But the attitudes of the American people change quickly. It only took approx. 5 or 6 months after the greatest terrorist attack in American history for public opinion in the US to switch from fighting terrorism as being #1 to the economy as being #1. Terrorism ranked around 5th or 6th below things like social security and education. Can Bush drag this war out for another 19 months at the intensity it is currently at? If it were part of some grand conspiracy he would be telling the 3ID and the 101 Airborne to hold back, instead it‘s been 12 days and they‘re on Baghdad‘s doorstep. True, America may have troops in Iraq in 19 months, but they still have troops in Afghanistan who are still engaing in combat and for the intent of public opinion polls, everyone has forgotten about them. My guess is 19 months from now the economy will be #1 yet again. If Bush wanted to gain electorally from this war he should have started it last October, shortly before the congressional elections. In the end the Republicans cleaned up and took control of Congress, but at the time now one ever would have predicted that. Polls showed the country evenly divided between democrats and republicans. Bush was at risk of losing total control of Congress, war then would have made more sense if the intent was to win elections. Bush started this war at the worst possible time if his goal was to win a second term.

Waiting another 2 or 3 weeks... do you really think it would have made a difference? If Bush had of waited another 3 weeks Hans Blix would still be saying he needed yet more time and the French and Germans would still be opposed, and Chretien would have a fence poll up his *** as always. You‘re right RCA, 3 weeks wouldn‘t have made any difference at all, either way. Why prolong the inevitable? Chirac was never going to agree to this war no matter what Bush said or did.

Saddam defied 17 UN resolutions all of which said he had to cooperate fully with the UN in disarmament. It was the condition of the cease-fire that ended the Gulf War, he broke it, in fact he never lived up to it in the first place. This should have happened years ago.

The UN will not be de-legitimized, mostly because it‘s largely worthless institution in the first place. There is no precident for asking the UN to go to war. Only twice has it ever been done, 1950 with the Korean War and 1991 with the Gulf War. George Bush senior broke a long tradition or not asking the UN to go to war which lasted throughout the Cold War. Nations don‘t go to war based on precedent, they go to war based on self-interest. The UN will remain the UN, the a shop of egotistical, self-rightous talking heads. And America did get many "poor" countries to go along with this coalition, pretty much all of eastern Europe and a good part of western Europe too.

After the first night of bombing the Palestinian Liberation Authority released a press release condeming the attack and saying that one of its members was killed in the very first strike, the one that was targeted at Saddam and his inner circle. What was a PLA official doing in Baghdad meeting with Saddam? Must have been discussing an aid project for the west bank since there is no "proven" link between Saddam and terrorism. Saddam does fund terrorists, maybe not Osama, but he‘s not the only one out there.

North Korea??? First of all they already have nukes. You treat the nuclear countries differently then you do the non-nuclear ones. Second, they are a backward hold over from the Cold War. North Korea has no exportable ideology, they are geographically isolated. The only thing they do is sell nuclear technology to other rogue states, like Iran. The North Koreans won‘t actually use their own nuclear weapons. Does anyone seriously believe they would nuke the continental United States or one of America‘s allies in the pacific? If you do please explain why. North Korea exports its technology, but ultimately killing that regime is like killing Osama and declaring the war on terrorism over, another leader will just pop right back in and replace him. In the long run Iran or Iraq can get nukes elsewhere.

Seething Arab street? Where are they all? We had tnes of thousands of people protesting the war in places like London and Toronto but only 5000 in Cairo. Hmmmm... The people of the middle east have faced years of bull**** propaghanda from their governments. Their governments encourage them to blame America and Israel for all their woes because they know the second they stop, the people will realize that their own leaders are total screw ups and not fit to hold the positions they do. Then revolt might come. That‘s why you get the House of Saud uttering that they are good friends with America but still handing Osama money on the side. that has to change. North Korea is an excuse created to avoid doing this messy but necessary work.
 
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