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Alan Williams Makes Procurement Suggestion

geo said:
Rodahn, you're looking at it from a now perspective......
DDHs are coming up to term & so are the support ships - all in all that could account for new keels for the next 5 years and the laying up of the old girls..... Then there is the refit & later replacement of Frigates and Maritime / Coast guard patrol vessels....

Geo;
What you say is true, however if the navy cannot man the vessels that they currently have, even the MCDV's are having problems with manning, and they are done primarily by reservists, how do you propose that they man the vessels in the future?

Chimo

Rod
 
Rodahn said:
...however if the navy cannot man the vessels that they currently have, even the MCDV's are having problems with manning, and they are done primarily by reservists, how do you propose that they man the vessels in the future?
...

I think you are just misunderstanding what is proposed here. This isn't about naval expansion (more ships); it's about replacing hulls incrementally. For example: the usual CF way is to wait until all the ships are too old and then quickly replace all over a short time frame; what is proposed is to replace a ship about once a year (and probably refit one once a year as well).

Providing the crew for any current, new, or replaced ship is a separate issue.
 
Iterator said:
I think you are just misunderstanding what is proposed here. This isn't about naval expansion (more ships); it's about replacing hulls incrementally. For example: the usual CF way is to wait until all the ships are too old and then quickly replace all over a short time frame; what is proposed is to replace a ship about once a year (and probably refit one once a year as well).

Providing the crew for any current, new, or replaced ship is a separate issue.

Understood, but one also has to look at the life cycle of the equipment being replaced, in this case  believe that the life cycle for the frigates is 20 - 25 years. Laying a new keel yearly would give us say 25 ships, and currently the navy can't man the 15(?) major vessels it currently has. Though I did not take into account Geo's use of the Coast Guard vessels, was only thinking of the military ships
 
Also, Rodahn, the tendency in new classes of ships it to take advantage of available technologies to reduce manning levels.  The latest 6300 tonne Danish vessels with C2 and Support facilities as well as 5" gun, Harpoons and Medium Helicopters has a permanent crew of only 100 all ranks (rooms for 169) vs 200+ on the CPFs.

http://www.navalhistory.dk/English/TheShips/Classes/Absalon_Class(2004).htm

But as noted by Iterator, the point here is about the viability of establishing a production line that can produce 1-2 ships a year into the indefinite future - and despite my having decided capitalist tendencies I would willingly accept that such an industry could/should be nationalized if that was the only way to maintain such a capability and if there was some way to keep prices under control and pork-barreling out.
 
Kirkhill said:
I would willingly accept that such an industry could/should be nationalized if that was the only way to maintain such a capability and if there was some way to keep prices under control and pork-barreling out.

But what it does is get the government union bureaucracy attitude (see: Air Canada) totally ingrained in it.
 
GAP said:
But what it does is get the government union bureaucracy attitude (see: Air Canada) totally ingrained in it.

Agreed.  But note that I said accept not prefer. There are times when a state monopoly may be the only answer.  Even an inefficient capability is better than no capability.
 
Rodahn said:
Understood, but one also has to look at the life cycle of the equipment being replaced, in this case  believe that the life cycle for the frigates is 20 - 25 years. Laying a new keel yearly would give us say 25 ships, and currently the navy can't man the 15(?) major vessels it currently has. Though I did not take into account Geo's use of the Coast Guard vessels, was only thinking of the military ships

True. I see your point (and note the recognition of CCG)

There is now a new focus on more practical uses for the navy - ship to shore operations (with both land and air assets). The new littoral role does not diminish the need for ASW or Air Defence, so perhaps there will be an increase (if only slight) in the overall number of hulls, or larger vessels might require more work and a year may be skipped to accommodate this.


I am also on the side that, even though there is a trade off of economics and defence, and as much as COTS may lower the cost of some items, there may always be the desire to maintain some production capacity.
 
RE Iterators post
...if the navy cannot man the vessels that they currently have, even the MCDV's are having problems with manning, and they are done primarily by reservists, how do you propose that they man the vessels in the future?...

There need not be more ships.

I'll probably get a name wrong so bear with me my naval Jane's is at home on top of the loo. I'll try to make the point with the limits of my oldish memory as sole support, forgive any errors...

If we return to my example of the Dutch, the De Zeven Provincen 's are replacing the Tromp's. This latter group were younger than the 280's. The L class replace the older Karel Doorman class (mid 70's (?)). Which in turn replaced the older vanSpeijk class (essentially broad-beamed Leanders of the late sixties). It seems the Dutch never really wear out their ships the way we do.

Look also at the British. The Duke FFG's are replacing the Broadsword Type 22's (mid 80's- roughly contemporaries of our 330's) which in turn replaced the Amazon Type 21's  of the late 70's (and others, Type 12 Leander's for example-viz our Steamers). The Daring DDG Type 45's are replacing the Manchester and Sheffield Type 42's. Again constant rollover.

Now the RN is somewhat bigger than MarCom but the example of the Dutch is comparable to us. A small-ish navy can still sustain a new keel every couple of years, taking into account AOR's, a dozen frigates and six or so DDH's  as TOE and CCG.


 
I have to wonder though, since we are all so smart and have this figured out, why is this not happening?

- Too difficult to buy votes by just maintaining jobs?
- It is prohibitively expensive?
- Some other reason(s)?

 
Iterator said:
I have to wonder though, since we are all so smart and have this figured out, why is this not happening?

Someone else gets to build the bureaucratic kingdom associated with it...if it is not your empire, why hurry it along.
 
Also, I think we have to fairly admit that not every government necessarily wishes to spend its revenues in the same areas.

That is why I suggested early on that for this programme to work it has to be a multi-party consensus that will be handed down over the generations.  I mean generations literally. The European nations that have been maintaining a maritime capability have been at it uninterrupted for centuries and some claim over a millenia of ship building.  It is not a fad for them that goes in and out of political style.  It is who they are.
 
geo said:
biggest problem is always (ALWAYS) an economic issue of "economic benefits" to the various areas of the Country.  When you make decisions by committee and take 9 years to bring on line, "that's what you're going to get"  When you buy "off the shelf" there are no economic benefits to the constituency UNLESS you have had some forethought and encourage our manufacturers to maintain R&D AND production facilities operating year after year....

Geo hit the nail on the head!

Folks, look at the following links to get a flavour for why the operational requirement (in its purest form) does not always rule the day...

Industrial Regional Benefits policy - why things can take a long time...

Industry Canada - Aerospace and Defence - Current and Potential Projects

...and look at all the DND projects on the list that will have to have IRBs...
Potential Major Crown Projects that will have IRBs

...the irony of the bow-tie-wearing Mr. Williams and his reign service as ADM(Mat) and hearing these statements is not lost to those of us working or having worked projects within the DSP...so nice of him to try to recommend speeding things up from 15 years to 9 years...  ::)

G2G
 
Iterator said:
I have to wonder though, since we are all so smart and have this figured out, why is this not happening?
- Too difficult to buy votes by just maintaining jobs?
- It is prohibitively expensive?
- Some other reason(s)?

Note that I do not haunt the halls of power (Nor those of the big puzzle palace)
If we can figure it out why hasn't anyone else?.... up until now, the CDS & the ministers were working with a closed ended budget.  you couldn't even bring up expendutures for big ticket items without having turned in umpteen million empties and saved your nickles.

Some people, including the current MND understand that you can't work it that way and maintain a credible force.........
 
Iterator said:
I have to wonder though, since we are all so smart and have this figured out, why is this not happening?

- Too difficult to buy votes by just maintaining jobs?
- It is prohibitively expensive?
- Some other reason(s)?

Nice tone, Iterator.  Perhaps you forgot a smilie?   ::)   

Most of us are not providing criticism while sitting around on our g.m.

Just because many of us know where much of the resistance is, doesn't mean we can change it.  I lived away from my family for years because a politician had my unit moved for absolutely no operational reason (in fact, undisputed reduced operational capability)

To help improve the system as much as I believe is possible for someone as far down the chain as I am, I have provided my input: a) through the CoC, b) to my MP, and c) through continuing to work as hard within the existing process as possible.

G2G
 
Good2Golf said:
Nice tone, Iterator.  Perhaps you forgot a smilie?  ::) 

Most of us are not providing criticism while sitting around on our g.m.

Just because many of us know where much of the resistance is, doesn't mean we can change it. ...

A smiley was not required, my post was minimally sarcastic and encompassed myself as a contributor to the topic.

Some solutions that seem ideal are not implemented for solid practical reasons (or even pragmatic political ones); I am inquiring if anyone is aware of any (or willing to guess).
 
Would it not be possible for there to be a board in charge of the procurement of ships, tanks etc. This board could be given a blank check or a set amount of money to buy the equipment that the forces needs as quickly as economically possible. Eventually they could fall into a pattern of buying new ships etc as they are needed or whenever there is an expansion of the forces, war, etc.
  And then DND could then be in charge of supporting the costs of the equipment and personal over the long term. Each year they could give the government the bill. The bill gets paid, a new year begins, and the process rolls on.....

Just an idea, feel free to criticize ;D

 
err.... you're back to the subjective when you state "as they are needed"......
but when you start talking about needing them, there is a 9 year lead time to delivery, not a good thing.  Better off having a 20 year cycle with a 20 ship navy/CCG fleet.  That way you have naval engineers at work all the time for you - ready for new builds AND refits.  At present, we have to reinvent the wheel every time (and reinvent = $$$$)
 
There is a bit of a hijack happening on this thread.

We are off on naval procurement. Yet there is something here

Recall Kirkhill's statement above "The European nations that have been maintaining a maritime capability have been at it uninterrupted for centuries and some claim over a millenia of ship building."

So I'll be selfish and come back to the Dutch. They are a naval power. They made that choice a long time ago.

Why? well they sat out WWI, and 'got caught' n WWII, but yet, if it goes back to Tromp and deRuyter they committed to maritime power. Yes, they had something of an Empire in the IO, and yes they had  substantial maritime trade interests in this (last) century.

But it is deeper than that. We must put ourselves in this mirror and ask ourselves. So what is Canada's contribution?

It's not about this mandate or this party, it's about Canada.

In the end it's not IMHO about putting a Bty of triple 7's in the 'Ghan in a couple of months, it's about what is Canada to do?

I fear that if we do not establish ourselves as something, for instance, a land force middle power, or a naval middle power, or an air middle power we are lost. Further I think that we must decide, and the issue has been forced on the Army, what sort of middle power are to be? A LIB commitment? A BG commitment? When the phone rings what've we got? 

A white five quarter and a nice blue hat? Bahhhh!

Mr Williams point is a good one, but it's a band aid. I counter, Whither Canada?

Too bad the vision isn't there.

Rant ends over.

 
Its not the vision of the Gov't -- remember Perrin Betty's White Paper
the Liberals killed it -- and undre pressure the BM PC's axed a lot just after it was announced
its the Canadian public appetite to cut defence...
 
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