All Things CAF and Covid/ Covid Vaccine [merged]

[MJP]

Your decision to vaccinate is putting the unvaccinated at risk.

Ahh the reverse uno card

 

[FJAG]

Sure but when looking at ratios, there are far more unvaccinated people hospitalized or in ICU than vaccinated. To illustrate my point, I’ll use an extreme. If 90 people are vaccinated and 10 are not, and 5 vaccinated and 5 unvaccinated are in ICU, when looking at absolute numbers, it seems like the vaccine doesn’t work but, 10% or the population make up 50% of the patients in ICU. Yes, you can still spread COVID even when vaccinated but when infected, those vaccinated fare much better than unvaccinated. The effects are far less severe.

This!

 

[MilEME09]

Also the fact that vaccinated numbers are increasing, basic mathematics tell me cases in hospital will grow too

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

And when those people, who were medically able but decided not to get vaccinated, collectively are the ones crashing the healthcare system (again) they should be free of consequences for the damages their decision caused?

Choosing not to get the vaccine risks the lives of other people. So, I guess “my body my choice” only applies to what comes out of a needle. If my choice impacts my body and your body, I only have to consider my wants and don’t let your health and safety weigh on my wants?

Couple of points for you to consider:

1. "The healthcare System is Collapsing?"

When exactly did the healthcare system collapse? It never has, even during the worst of the outbreak. Hospitals are always operating at near capacity anyways, there have been studies that have shown hospital capacity was actually lower in Ontario and elsewhere at certain points in time prior to COVID.

Don't believe me? Well google it and find out.

2. "Choosing not to get the vaccine risks the lives of people?"

How exactly does it do that?

The vaccines aren't designed to prevent transmission, that's a common misconception, they are designed to lessen the severity of the disease and strengthen the body's immune response.

The virus is still transmitted in vaccinated people it's just that most of them don't notice because they no longer get sick from the disease and never get tested.

Not getting vaccinated risks the lives of other non-vaccinated people. That's a good thing, it means they will learn that they should get vaccinated due to the consequences of them getting sick from their immune system not being able to deal with the disease.

Long term, that's a huge step forward for the pro-vaccine segment of society.

I'm pro-vaccination, but also pro freedom of choice. If people want to get something they will get it, if they don't, well that's their choice. They, after all, still pay taxes and medical insurance like the rest of us.

Coercion is a terrible strategy and creates division and problems elsewhere. It's not worth the cost.

 

[ballz]

As expected, the point sails about six miles over your head. To help you along, consider this question; what other product am I mandated to ingest, consume, or inject at the threat of losing my livelihood? And consider that those who make it are telling us how much we must take.

You're a CAF member right? Then the answer is "whatever ones you are told," including lead bullets fed to you by a machine gun. It's called unlimited liability, if you didn't get the brief if basic training, consider yourself lucky that you've been collecting a pay cheque for all these years without having to reconcile why.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

You're a CAF member right? Then the answer is "whatever ones you are told," including led bullets fed to you by a machine gun. It's called unlimited liability, if you didn't get the brief if basic training, consider yourself lucky that you've been collecting a pay cheque for all these years without having to reconcile why.

This I agree with 100%. Unlimited Liability is sacrosanct. That doesn't extend to the civilian population though IMO.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Couple of points for you to consider:

1. "The healthcare System is Collapsing?"

When exactly did the healthcare system collapse? It never has, even during the worst of the outbreak. Hospitals are always operating at near capacity anyways, there have been studies that have shown hospital capacity was actually lower in Ontario and elsewhere at certain points in time prior to COVID.

Don't believe me? Well google it and find out.

Surgeries were cancelled because doctors and nurses were busy in the ICU. One of my friends’ father life-saving surgery was cancelled, re-scheduled and cancelled again (and he eventually died) because the surgeons were otherwise busy treating COVID patients. I would call that a collapse.

 

[MilEME09]

When the normal standard of care can no longer be provided due to a situation, we have collapsed.

 

[McG]

1. "The healthcare System is Collapsing?"

When exactly did the healthcare system collapse? It never has, even during the worst of the outbreak. Hospitals are always operating at near capacity anyways, there have been studies that have shown hospital capacity was actually lower in Ontario and elsewhere at certain points in time prior to COVID.

Don't believe me? Well google it and find out.

The term I used was “crashing” but, call it what you want, the system has failed when a province needs CAF and/or ICRC to rescue its overwhelmed resources or to evacuate patients to other cities or provinces. When life saving “elective” surgeries are being cancelled to accommodate assholes who are deathly ill of their own volition, that is also a failing of the system. We have seen such problems throughout the pandemic, but it has been the anti-vax crowd who were the drives of such failures over the past year.

2. "Choosing not to get the vaccine risks the lives of people?"

How exactly does it do that?

When the healthcare system is overwhelmed by those who chose not to vaccinate then it is not able to look after other people who suffer life threatening illness or injury nor is it able to to properly support those who are unable to vaccinate. The system compensâtes by cancelling procedures that are “less urgent” but these are still life saving procedures and Canadians have died because of these cancelations.

Not getting vaccinated risks the lives of other non-vaccinated people. That's a good thing, it means they will learn that they should get vaccinated due to the consequences of them getting sick from their immune system not being able to deal with the disease.

???Canadians gambling with the lives of other Canadians is a good thing??? Did you really mean to say that?! Should I need to see my neighbour die before I take the easy steps to protect myself and my community?

 

[OldSolduer]

This I agree with 100%. Unlimited Liability is sacrosanct. That doesn't extend to the civilian population though IMO.

We’re here to defend democracy not practice it. CAF members need to remember that

 

[MilEME09]

We’re here to defend democracy not practice it. CAF members need to remember that

I would argue we the CAF are here to defend the Canadian people, not democracy. If it was the democratic process we were protecting, then we should of pulled a turkey, and have a coup several times in our history because of governments doing things contrary to the principles of democracy. We haven't though, instead no matter how far any one government slides to be more secretive, or more corrupt, we let it all slide because we get to vote every 4 years or so.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Yet, more and more it's the vaccinated who are becoming infected and hospitalized. So what is your call now that the vaccinated are spreading covid. Your decision to vaccinate is putting the unvaccinated at risk. Six of one, half dozen of the other. But this is exactly the point, and you are guilty of demonizing those who don't agree with your stance. If your a great believer of the media and hype, perhaps you should be looking elsewhere. The hype says it's a never ending pandemic and we'll never beat it. So, instead of blaming people for flooding the system, perhaps it's the system that needs to expand to cover this new misery that will overtake us all. I see hospital overloads as an infrastructure problem, not a people problem. I'll tell you how bad it is here. We're in a provincial hot spot. Yet we are taking patients from all over the place. London, Toronto and even at one point Alberta, yet our LHINs keep saying we are over capacity and have to shut down all small businesses and restaurants, but any big players can keep playing. If you want to blame the unvaccinated, you should social distance yourself from them. They are under zero obligation to bend to your wishes or rules. Perhaps you can all wear a big red V patch so we can stay away from you.

Sorry for the semi sarcastic response but it's exactly how vaxx zealots, even some here, sound to us anti mandate, anti passport, anti lockdown crowd. Vaxx zealots, the ones that want quarantine facilities, mandated treatment with experimental medical substances and a tiered social system based on your contribution to the state. Your vaxx passport is your exclusive country club membership card into your exclusive group who get to frequent restaurants, movies, sports and as NB has done, buy groceries. That's the shit that divides us. I don't give a shit if you have the shot or not. That's your business, not mine or anyone else's.
Here's the problem, there's no discussion, no questions. Just a varied levels of government adherence and dogma on one hand and everything from those that take the jab but only did it to stay employed, stay housed, fed and warm. All the way down to those that would invoke Waco. How the hell did we get to spineless politicians who don't, want to make a decision. Instead they give the running of the country's economy, industry, the social safety net over to a bunch of unelected medical czars?

 

[Halifax Tar]

I find alot of people these days let their opinions and views become a part of their identity.

When their views or opinions are challanged they take it personally and its as if their integrity itself is being attacked.

I'm on a year long French course... My fragile ego has been smashed into an oblivion since Aug hahaha I'm very comfortable being told what I am saying is wrong lol

Some jest for humor, but I fully agree

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Sorry for the semi sarcastic response but it's exactly how vaxx zealots, even some here, sound to us anti mandate, anti passport, anti lockdown crowd. Vaxx zealots, the ones that want quarantine facilities, mandated treatment with experimental medical substances and a tiered social system based on your contribution to the state. Your vaxx passport is your exclusive country club membership card into your exclusive group who get to frequent restaurants, movies, sports and as NB has done, buy groceries. That's the shit that divides us. I don't give a shit if you have the shot or not. That's your business, not mine or anyone else's.
Here's the problem, there's no discussion, no questions. Just a varied levels of government adherence and dogma on one hand and everything from those that take the jab but only did it to stay employed, stay housed, fed and warm. All the way down to those that would invoke Waco. How the hell did we get to spineless politicians who don't, want to make a decision. Instead they give the running of the country's economy, industry, the social safety net over to a bunch of unelected medical czars?

Well first I would rather have professionals run whatever shit show is happening and second, really?......politicians long handed over running the country to a bunch of unelected judges, so why would this be different?

 

[mariomike]

When life saving “elective” surgeries are being cancelled to accommodate assholes who are deathly ill of their own volition, that is also a failing of the system.

Regarding surgical delay,

"These vaccinated patients are directly harmed when hospitals use all their resources to care for the many unvaccinated patients with COVID-19,” he writes. “For example, delaying breast cancer surgery by just four weeks increases the relative risk of death from the disease by 8 percent.”

Hospitals Have Ethical Obligation to Care for Unvaccinated Severe COVID-19 Patients

American Thoracic Society

www.thoracic.org

 

[FJAG]

Here's the problem, there's no discussion, no questions. Just a varied levels of government adherence and dogma on one hand and everything from those that take the jab but only did it to stay employed, stay housed, fed and warm. All the way down to those that would invoke Waco. How the hell did we get to spineless politicians who don't, want to make a decision. Instead they give the running of the country's economy, industry, the social safety net over to a bunch of unelected medical czars?

I'm not sure why you think that the politicians, bureaucrats and scientists involved in this are a homogeneous block of like-minded individuals who do not discuss and debate the various issues involved. There are clear competing interests here which would put these three disparate groups at different points on the spectrum that runs between absolute monarchy and anarchy. These debates clearly go on and are presented to the public after the decisions are made. One only needs to look at the political controversies going on in the UK over some of these issues. They are present within the political structure of Canada as well.

But this is why we live in a democracy where we elect leaders to make important decisions for the common good for all of us.

The fact that a given decision does not go your way is not a sign that a dictatorship or cabal has set an agenda to suppress the nation or that those making the decision are "spineless". Those who are not joining the "exclusive country club" have made that choice of their own volition. Those of us who choose to be vaccinated are not zealots. No one is calling to invoke Waco. The "shit that divides us" actually comes from the tinfoil conspiracy theories that dominate the social media and that make every issue, no matter how trivial, no matter if extreme left or extreme right, a call to arms. Try to remember that when eighty or ninety percent of the population thinks and acts one way on an issue that is democracy at work. We just had an election and while it didn't go my way, it was an opportunity for the voting public at large to voice their objection to how the government was dealing with this pandemic. Their vote clearly favoured the status quo - only a few anti-vaxxers made it in.

 

[lenaitch]

Sorry for the semi sarcastic response but it's exactly how vaxx zealots, even some here, sound to us anti mandate, anti passport, anti lockdown crowd. Vaxx zealots, the ones that want quarantine facilities, mandated treatment with experimental medical substances and a tiered social system based on your contribution to the state. Your vaxx passport is your exclusive country club membership card into your exclusive group who get to frequent restaurants, movies, sports and as NB has done, buy groceries. That's the shit that divides us. I don't give a shit if you have the shot or not. That's your business, not mine or anyone else's.
Here's the problem, there's no discussion, no questions. Just a varied levels of government adherence and dogma on one hand and everything from those that take the jab but only did it to stay employed, stay housed, fed and warm. All the way down to those that would invoke Waco. How the hell did we get to spineless politicians who don't, want to make a decision. Instead they give the running of the country's economy, industry, the social safety net over to a bunch of unelected medical czars?

And I suppose my driver's licence is my country club membership to drive on public roads and my property title is my country club membership to keep people from living on my land. It's called participating in a civil society.

I'm not sure I'd be too thrilled with elected politicians attempting to parse medical/scientific data and directing action all on their own, any more than I would having them directing fine-grained law enforcement or military action.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

And I suppose my driver's licence is my country club membership to drive on public roads and my property title is my country club membership to keep people from living on my land. It's called participating in a civil society.

I'm not sure I'd be too thrilled with elected politicians attempting to parse medical/scientific data and directing action all on their own, any more than I would having them directing fine-grained law enforcement or military action.

Do you need to show your driver's licence to by groceries? This is nothing but a strawman excuse.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Do you need to show your driver's licence to by groceries? This is nothing but a strawman excuse.

Have you had to show a vacc certificate to buy groceries??

 

[Good2Golf]

Do you need to show your driver's licence to by groceries? This is nothing but a strawman excuse.

For most people to ‘get’ to a grocery store, yes.