All Things CAF and Covid/ Covid Vaccine [merged]

[QV]

Sorry, but the CAF will function just fine and probably better without mandatory C19 shots that don't work very well. "How will they every manage?!"

I can't help but wonder the draconian vaccine mandate is another part of the recruiting crisis.

 

[Navy_Pete]

It's still mandatory for traveling everywhere outside CAN (and for foreigners coming into CAN); still a pretty basic universality of service requirement.

Just because they aren't 100% effective at stopping transmission, doesn't mean they don't work very well. Hospitalization rates are way down compared to pre-vaccination, and the unvaccinated are massively over-represented in hospitalizations/deaths. Incidents of severe symptoms and long term impacts from COVID also way down. Very easy to link all of those to long term effectiveness of a fighting force.

Completely subjective, but I've still yet to hear of someone leaving due to vaccination that we aren't better off without. Lots of people are still getting out for totally different reasons, but 0.4% loss from unvaccinated isn't a significant overall loss, when none of those people are deployable and have employment limitations.

 

[QV]

You think the the C19 vax is mandatory travelling everywhere outside Canada? You might want to look into that.

They're 0% effective in stopping transmission. Zero. They are also zero % effective in preventing a vaccinated person getting it. How many people do you know that are vaxd and still got C19, even multiple times? If the only thing they do is stop a worse outcome for a tiny margin of at-risk people, then that really is only a direct personal impact now isn't it?

I can see you support it still... if you think it's mandatory all around the world and that it actually works very well.

 

[Navy_Pete]

You think the the C19 vax is mandatory travelling everywhere outside Canada? You might want to look into that.

It sure is; a large number of countries still require proof of vaccination for international travelers. Canada also does for a few more days.

They're 0% effective in stopping transmission. Zero. They are also zero % effective in preventing a vaccinated person getting it. How many people do you know that are vaxd and still got C19, even multiple times? If the only thing they do is stop a worse outcome for a tiny margin of at-risk people, then that really is only a direct personal impact now isn't it?

I can see you support it still... if you think it's mandatory all around the world and that it actually works very well.

Not factually true. The vaccines are still partially effecting at stopping transmission, also reduces the amount of time people are contagious, and highly effective at reducing severity.

 

[Quirky]

The vaccines are still partially effecting at stopping transmission, also reduces the amount of time people are contagious, and highly effective at reducing severity.

Assuming you continue with boosting. My last shot was in January, I doubt I have any protection left. Enough of this booster crap, I realize the gov needs to justify that Moderna factory in Quebec, but people aren't stupid enough to continue with these injections.

 

[kev994]

Assuming you continue with boosting. My last shot was in January, I doubt I have any protection left. Enough of this booster crap, I realize the gov needs to justify that Moderna factory in Quebec, but people aren't stupid enough to continue with these injections.

I’ll take another one, and then another after 6 months. Because I’m stupid enough to believe science instead of the meme someone posted on Facebook.

 

[QV]

I’ll take another one, and then another after 6 months. Because I’m stupid enough to believe science instead of the meme someone posted on Facebook.

Fill your boots. Just mind your own business and leave others alone (about their status).

In other late breaking news: scientists have discovered tinfoil is connected to lower cases of myocarditis and reduced chances of sudden adult death syndrome.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Not factually true. The vaccines are still partially effecting at stopping transmission, also reduces the amount of time people are contagious, and highly effective at reducing severity.

I'm incredibly curious about what we'd see if we were able to go back in time and apply widespread testing and wastewater sampling to the likes of the smallpox and polio vaccine rollouts.

No vaccine has ever been a force field, we've just never tested people that didn't get seriously sick across the whole of society for weeks on end.

 

[Winds]

I’ll take another one, and then another after 6 months. Because I’m stupid enough to believe science instead of the meme someone posted on Facebook.

Will you continue to blundly get a booster every six months even if it isn't recommended? Many health professionals have been speaking out in recent months about the need for individuals to weigh risks when considering getting a booster... even one's that were part of the early campaign to fight vaccine hesitancy. In Ontario, the Chief Medical Officer (Kieran Moore) stated such in a July news conference, citing as an example that young men (without comorbidities) were at higher risk of heart complications from vaccination than they were of being hospitalized from COVID.

You can do whatever you want, science isn't a religion to be "believed in".

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

And got shot down with his "1 in 5000" claim very quickly. And the cherry picking of an age group....

 

[QV]

The point is that a person should be able to take as many boosters and vaccines as available and prescribed. And any person should also be able to opt out. Notice it’s only one side that are usually zealots and attack the other in this with the “you take the vax to protect me” rhetoric. Someone will now say “there’s crazy Antivaxxers out there”… yes, yes, but they aren’t lobbying or forcing you to lose your livelihood your choices. They just want to be left alone. Big difference.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Not factually true. The vaccines are still partially effecting at stopping transmission, also reduces the amount of time people are contagious, and highly effective at reducing severity.

In my opinion the military is one of the few remaining industries/occupations where a mandate is justifiable.
Unit wide protection against a virus that (even if it kills and hospitalizes no one) would cut through a battlegroup in a week or two leaving a significant percentage preferring to stay home in bed and struggling to go up a flight of stairs seems like a reasonable thing to require.

 

[Quirky]

In my opinion the military is one of the few remaining industries/occupations where a mandate is justifiable.
Unit wide protection against a virus that (even if it kills and hospitalizes no one) would cut through a battlegroup in a week or two leaving a significant percentage preferring to stay home in bed and struggling to go up a flight of stairs seems like a reasonable thing to require.

If your unit is a bunch of sick seniors.

 

[IKnowNothing]

If your unit is a bunch of sick seniors.

I know several fit people under 40 that got it (either prior to vaccinations being available or chose not to) that were 3-6 days of being physically useless. Certainly not hospital worthy, but between coughing, shortness of breath, lack of energy... yeah physically useless is the best descriptor.

 

[mariomike]

In my opinion the military is one of the few remaining industries/occupations where a mandate is justifiable.

Justifiable or not is a matter of opinion.

But, other employers have it.

COVID-19: Vaccination Policy

Policy Statement The health and safety of City employees is a priority. The City of Toronto is committed to taking every reasonable precaution in the circumstances for the protection of the health and safety of workers from the hazard of COVID-19. Vaccination is a key element in the protection...

www.toronto.ca

 

[Navy_Pete]

@QV All the boosters are optional and outside the vaccine mandate requirements. People without the vaccines are free to be left alone, but also not allowed into most countries without it.

Lot of previously healthy people got COVID and have been left with organ damage, even with mild symptoms. They are just starting to study it now, but expect we will lose a number of CAF folks from medical limitations following COVID.

 

[lenaitch]

I know several fit people under 40 that got it (either prior to vaccinations being available or chose not to) that were 3-6 days of being physically useless. Certainly not hospital worthy, but between coughing, shortness of breath, lack of energy... yeah physically useless is the best descriptor.

Jeez, you just described me on a good day!

The military, like civilian emergency services and possibly other civilian critical infrastructures, has a need to protect the organization so that it can remain responsive. The primary goal of the civilian world at large was to protect the integrity of the healthcare system. Trying to keep everybody absolutely healthy and virus free, even if it was medically possible, which it seems is not, so far, is unrealistic. It is a virus with symptoms that seem to range from essentially none all the way to dead.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Justifiable or not is a matter of opinion.

But, other employers have it.

COVID-19: Vaccination Policy

Policy Statement The health and safety of City employees is a priority. The City of Toronto is committed to taking every reasonable precaution in the circumstances for the protection of the health and safety of workers from the hazard of COVID-19. Vaccination is a key element in the protection...

www.toronto.ca

Snark: Check the first three words of the post

Non Snark: It's a tough one. There are three basic avenues to justify mandates

Societal Protection- what the provinces did. Reducing the exposure of people that chose to leave themselves at higher risk to reduce the burden on the hospital system. Justified as a temporary measure during an active pandemic with the healthcare system on the brink, but for no longer than absolutely necessary

Individual Protection- Organizations have a responsibility to take reasonable steps to protect their employees from known preventable harms. More easily justified in an active pandemic, but still (in my opinion ) various organizations overstepped. High traffic public facing roles? Healthcare? Congested workspaces with a high volume of coworkers? Sure. You're being negligent if you don't mandate. But people working from home? Outside? In well ventilated offices with little to no outside contact? I don't think that's a justifiable health and safety measure.

Organizational Protection- what CAF is currently doing. Protecting their interests by mitigating the risk of preventable downtime. With the worst (hopefully) behind us, I don't think a factory's profits pass the Oakes test, but national security and healthcare do.

 

[mariomike]

The military, like civilian emergency services and possibly other civilian critical infrastructures, has a need to protect the organization so that it can remain responsive.

We had to be vaccinated for Hepatitis B, Tetanus, Diphtheria, Polio, Pertussis, proof of immunity to Varicella TDP, MMR ( Measles, Mumps, Rubella ).

Proof of seasonal Influenza vaccination was also required.

 

[Winds]

And got shot down with his "1 in 5000" claim very quickly. And the cherry picking of an age group....

Well, there are recent studies showing even higher incidence rates of severe adverse events following vaccination with MRNA vaccines. For example, Norway has reported serious adverse reactions at a rate of "approximately 1 in 1000 after two doses of BioNTech/Pfizer mRNA product that result in hospitalisation or are life changing."

"Cherry picking of an age group"... you do realize that risks of both COVID and vaccination change drastically between age groups, right? Why should we only consider population-level risks? Can you actually quantify what the risk of hospitalization is for someone under 40, and by how much vaccination may have reduced that risk? What the difference in risk is for contracting and spreading the virus to others?... then use those number to justify denying them their employment and charter rights?

Consider the following 2-part article published in The Journal of Insulin Resistance, as it examines recent risk figures (and provides links to source data, obviously)... I guess they're just Fox News in disguise though, right?

Curing the pandemic of misinformation on COVID-19 mRNA vaccines through real evidence-based medicine - Part 1 | Malhotra | Journal of Insulin Resistance

The Journal of Insulin Resistance is a peer-reviewed, clinically oriented journal covering advances in disorders of insulin resistance. Articles focus on clinical care and advancing therapy for patients with insulin resistance-related disorders. Insulin resistance includes pathophysiology...

insulinresistance.org