All Things CAF and Covid/ Covid Vaccine [merged]

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Never ever confuse education and intelligence, they have very little to do with each other.

 

[lenaitch]

Never ever confuse education and intelligence, they have very little to do with each other.

Truth. I have more terminal degrees, doctors, lawyers (plus one doctor+lawyer) in my family than any one family deserves.

The higher your level of academic achievement, you know more and more about less and less.

 

[Weinie]

Truth. I have more terminal degrees, doctors, lawyers (plus one doctor+lawyer) in my family than any one family deserves.

The higher your level of academic achievement, you know more and more about less and less.

I agree , but certain people are exempt (Journeyman). Because most PhD's only give a shit about their specialty. Their focus is on their niche, and they could care less about the rest of the world and reality.

 

[lenaitch]

Honest question: Part VI of the NDA speaks to 'aid to the civil power' in response "a riot or disturbance of the peace" that is beyond provincial capabilities. What was the basis for the military's assistance during Covid, forest fires, Toronto snow storms, etc. Is it simply a request for federal assistance during a declared emergency (and, of course, the military being the only government department with capacity to respond)?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Successful viruses are those which are a) highly contagious, and b) not fatal to hosts. Most unvaccinated people won't die; they'll just be sick for a few days. Yes, there may be lingering effects, but FFS, I got one of those lingering effects people whinge about (partial loss/alteration of sense of smell) from common flu.

 

[PuckChaser]

Ummmmmmmmm....... I sorta get the gist of your post.

I am sure that the kids who faced the Blitz were under far more pressure. They, for the most part, turned out OK.

Of more concern to me me is that an Echo, Foxtrot, Golf or name the variant is going to be more virulent/lethal to my kids.

Different generation. We both know children back then had more daily hardships so the Blitz would not have been so much of an extreme hardship. Let's also be fair here, a German 250lb bomb is equally as effective at killing someone regardless of their age. COVID19 not so much, and if we're going to say comparisons to Flu is apples to oranges, Blitz comparisons are apples to rolex watches.

 

[Weinie]

Honest question: Part VI of the NDA speaks to 'aid to the civil power' in response "a riot or disturbance of the peace" that is beyond provincial capabilities. What was the basis for the military's assistance during Covid, forest fires, Toronto snow storms, etc. Is it simply a request for federal assistance during a declared emergency (and, of course, the military being the only government department with capacity to respond)?

I can only speak to one of those, and it was the Toronto snowstorm. I was an Ops O

I had lived in Toronto, at that time, for 9 years. No winters had seen any significant snowfall since I was posted there. In fact, the Lake Ontario "effect" and the size of the city made sure that very little snow fell or endured.

That changed significantly in 1999. Toronto got hammered snow-wise by three major snow storms in less than two weeks. The city had also recently gotten rid of a vast array of snow removal equipment under amalgamation (hence, a perfect storm).

Consequently, the City of Toronto had no capacity to deal with this.

When the IRU, based out of Petawawa (RCD) arrived, after driving for five hours, the second Capt I spoke to stated "There is more snow in Petawawa'" and my response was along the lines of "yup, got it."

The MND at the time was from Toronto. Weigh that with what you will.

Having said that, we deployed a number of Bisons at paramedic stations to act as ambulances. They could get through where no other vehicle could act, and they delivered., and saved lives.

The Request for Assistance is actuated by the provincial EMO (Emergency Management Office) when they determine that municipal/provincial resources are not sufficient to deal with a crisis, In this case Toronto was clearly out of their depth.

 

[mariomike]

What was the basis for the military's assistance during Covid, forest fires, Toronto snow storms, etc.

Mayor Lastman said his biggest concern was that when the snow melted there could be flooding.

The army assisted by cleaning the catch basins and shovelling around fire hydrants.

He also appreciated the capabilities of the Bison armoured vehicles.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Different generation. We both know children back then had more daily hardships so the Blitz would not have been so much of an extreme hardship. Let's also be fair here, a German 250lb bomb is equally as effective at killing someone regardless of their age. COVID19 not so much, and if we're going to say comparisons to Flu is apples to oranges, Blitz comparisons are apples to rolex watches.

Sorry, kids are kids,...it's todays parents who perceive them to be weaker.

 

[mariomike]

Back in the dark ages - as a six-year old in the 1950s - I and millions of my classmates were regularly vaccinated for all kinds of stuff. Never did get smallpox, or polio, or diphtheria or any of the host of things that were killing kids in the thousands ten or twenty years earlier.

But then we had playgrounds like these:

When did six-year olds become so fragile and precious?

My uncle was a policeman in Toronto and told me the swings in children's playgrounds were locked on Sunday's. "Nobody swings on a Sunday."

Back in the dark ages - as a six-year old in the 1950s - I and millions of my classmates were regularly vaccinated for all kinds of stuff. Never did get smallpox, or polio, or diphtheria or any of the host of things that were killing kids in the thousands ten or twenty years earlier.

 

[FJAG]

Honest question: Part VI of the NDA speaks to 'aid to the civil power' in response "a riot or disturbance of the peace" that is beyond provincial capabilities. What was the basis for the military's assistance during Covid, forest fires, Toronto snow storms, etc. Is it simply a request for federal assistance during a declared emergency (and, of course, the military being the only government department with capacity to respond)?

As you point out, Aid of the Civil Power (the proper legal term is "of" not "to") deals with riots and disturbances. Note that under the ACP a provincial government can demand assistance from the Feds albeit that the CDS decides the nature and amount of assistance the military will provide.

There are a number of other situations under various pieces of legislation where the federal government can provide assistance to a provincial government or other federal agency in a matter that is generally not a direct military matter.

Under s 273.6 of the NDA the Governor in Council can authorize by order the military to "perform any duty involving public service" if such assistance is in the public interest and the matter cannot be effectively dealt with without military assistance. This is liberally interpreted.

There are several Orders in Council as well that are effected under the Crown Prerogative such as military assistance to the Dept of Fisheries under PC 1970-1512

The MND also has the ability to provide military assistance to other Fed Govt departments by way of a memorandum of understanding such as the one made with the Solicitor General respecting assistance to the RCMP counter drug ops or with Fisheries as to ship and air fisheries surveillance.

Then there's the Federal Emergencies Act which gives the Fed Govt temporary powers to take exceptional measures in a national emergency which is a temporary event seriously endangering the lives, health or safety of Canadians and is of such a nature or proportions as to exceed the capacity or authority of a province to deal with. Disease is considered a public welfare emergency for the provisions of the Act.

I don't have any actual knowledge of what provisions are actually being used at this time and as you can see from the above there are several that might be applicable (such as 273.6 public service duty; the Emergencies Act; and interdepartmental MOUs).

 

[Weinie]

Since March 2020. We've locked them away from their friends, forbid them to touch anything and forced masks on their faces for a virus that's really significantly less dangerous than any other seasonal virus they are exposed to normal. We're sacrificing their mental and social well being to try to save ourselves, and its not even working.

You were the initiator of the case for current kids. I stated that kids have faced far worse in the past and come out alright. You also stated in your post above, that we (I) am sacrificing my kids mental and social well being by trying to save ourselves..

I have four kids. Their safety and well being is my primary concern. To diminish that concern diminishes you.

 

[Ludoc]

Different generation. We both know children back then had more daily hardships so the Blitz would not have been so much of an extreme hardship. Let's also be fair here, a German 250lb bomb is equally as effective at killing someone regardless of their age. COVID19 not so much, and if we're going to say comparisons to Flu is apples to oranges, Blitz comparisons are apples to rolex watches.

The blitz killed about 43,000 people. 1940s Britain had a population of about 44 million. So it killed about 1 in every 1000 people.

COVID19 has killed 132,000 in Britain. Their current population is about 66 million. So far it has killed about 1 in 500.

So, apples are about twice as likely to kill you as rolex watches.

Disclaimer: these are back of the envelope calculations with lots of rounding and all numbers are sole sourced from Wiki/Google

 

[mariomike]

Different generation. We both know children back then had more daily hardships so the Blitz would not have been so much of an extreme hardship. Let's also be fair here, a German 250lb bomb is equally as effective at killing someone regardless of their age. COVID19 not so much, and if we're going to say comparisons to Flu is apples to oranges, Blitz comparisons are apples to rolex watches.

The blitz killed about 43,000 people. 1940s Britain had a population of about 44 million. So it killed about 1 in every 1000 people.

So, apples are about twice as likely to kill you as rolex watches.

A lot of study went into the effect of morale bombing on civilians.

Investigation seems to show that having one's house demolished is most damaging to morale. People seem to mind it more than their friends of even relatives killed.
There seems little doubt that this would break the morale of the people.
Our calculation assumes, of course, that we really get one-half of our bombs into built up areas.

It's pretty hard to compare targeted civilian morale bombing to an indescriminate infectious disease.

At least if one, or an entire family, survives Covid, they have a home to return to when discharged from hospital.

 

[lenaitch]

My uncle was a policeman in Toronto and told me the swings in children's playgrounds were locked on Sunday's. "Nobody swings on a Sunday."

In stuffy olde Toronto, I suppose reflecting the nation at the time but in the extreme, virtually nothing happened on the Christian sabbath; no movies, little booze, transit on limited service ('Sunday only' stops, usually in front of churches). I remember being pestered to enforce the demon of Sunday trucking under the Lord's Day Act. Good times.

As you point out, Aid of the Civil Power (the proper legal term is "of" not "to") deals with riots and disturbances. Note that under the ACP a provincial government can demand assistance from the Feds albeit that the CDS decides the nature and amount of assistance the military will provide.

There are a number of other situations under various pieces of legislation where the federal government can provide assistance to a provincial government or other federal agency in a matter that is generally not a direct military matter.

Under s 273.6 of the NDA the Governor in Council can authorize by order the military to "perform any duty involving public service" if such assistance is in the public interest and the matter cannot be effectively dealt with without military assistance. This is liberally interpreted.

There are several Orders in Council as well that are effected under the Crown Prerogative such as military assistance to the Dept of Fisheries under PC 1970-1512

The MND also has the ability to provide military assistance to other Fed Govt departments by way of a memorandum of understanding such as the one made with the Solicitor General respecting assistance to the RCMP counter drug ops or with Fisheries as to ship and air fisheries surveillance.

Then there's the Federal Emergencies Act which gives the Fed Govt temporary powers to take exceptional measures in a national emergency which is a temporary event seriously endangering the lives, health or safety of Canadians and is of such a nature or proportions as to exceed the capacity or authority of a province to deal with. Disease is considered a public welfare emergency for the provisions of the Act.

I don't have any actual knowledge of what provisions are actually being used at this time and as you can see from the above there are several that might be applicable (such as 273.6 public service duty; the Emergencies Act; and interdepartmental MOUs).

Thanks for that (and thanks for the correction). I was looking for the likes of 273.6 and scrolled down the Act but not up, but, as you say, it seems they could be under a number of authorities. I was looking for the authority, not the justification.

 

[Navy_Pete]

In a related note; saw this good news story; they've trialed some new malaria treatments in combination with the annual vaccines and had a 70% drop in serious cases in kids. They figure this can save 400,000 a year.

Malaria trial shows ‘striking’ 70% reduction in severe illness in children

Malaria trial shows ‘striking’ 70% reduction in severe illness in children​

A study in Burkina Faso and Mali suggests combining anti-malarial drugs and vaccination could reduce deaths and hospitalisations

 

[dapaterson]

A very sobering discussion about ICUs and ventilators from Reddit...

https://www.reddit.com/r/nursing/comments/pbvcdu

 

[Brad Sallows]

For those making comparisons, the Blitz was focused on particular areas, particularly greater London. Figure out the truly affected population and recompute.

No, I don't really mean that. Don't bother: "random" and "intentional" have different effects on stress, and the comparison is pointless.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Shame "with a comorbidity or two" didn't make it into the title.

 

[mariomike]

In stuffy olde Toronto, I suppose reflecting the nation at the time but in the extreme, virtually nothing happened on the Christian sabbath; no movies, little booze, transit on limited service ('Sunday only' stops, usually in front of churches). I remember being pestered to enforce the demon of Sunday trucking under the Lord's Day Act. Good times.

Perhaps the theory was if police - the ultimate symbol of adult authority - gained the trust and friendship of young people, when those kids grew into adulthood, they would respect and trust their community police. Same way our family doctor gained our trust as children.

So when my family doctor tells me to take a shot, I roll up my sleeve.

For those making comparisons, the Blitz was focused on particular areas, particularly greater London.

Whatever the aiming points in London were, over Germany, the calculation was pretty simple.

One ton of bombs dropped on a built up area demolishes 20-40 dwellings and turns 100-200 people out of house and home.
If these ( bombs ) are dropped built-up areas they will make 4,000 to 8,000 people homeless.

There was a political, as well as economic ( de-housing factory workers ), reason for this.

One RCAF squadron was briefed by their Station Commander. He explained that the Nazis had convinced the German people that at the end of WW1 their armed forces had remained still on foreign soil and basically undefeated, and that they, the German forces of WW1, had been betrayed by politicians at home. "He then pointed to the cord running across the map to the city of Dresden, and said, 'There are going to be a lot of people in Dresden tonight who are going to find out that war can be a very nasty thing. Never again will any future German government be able to say that the country was fairly well intact but still defeated.' "
"Incidentally, it will show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do."

Battlefields in the Air: Canadians in Bomber Command page 152.

The Federal Statistical Office in Wiesbaden, Germany computed after the war that 3.7 million dwellings were destroyed in Germany, including 600,000 in Berlin alone.

It's pretty had to compare what survivors of "the Blitz" went through to Covid survivors, because at least they have a home to return to.