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All things Charlottesville (merged)

Rocky Mountains said:
Harriett Beecher Stowe - Uncle Tom's Cabin - "Both North and South have been guilty before God; and the Christian church has a heavy account to answer. "

Harriett Beecher Stowe saw no innocents in the slavery issue.  These facts are just prior to the Civil War.  Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, Missouri, D.C. and a whole whack of Territories in the Union had slavery.  Slaves found in the North were required to be returned to their owners.  Residents of Northern states, including banks often owned or repossessed slaves in other states.  Speaking in generalities as every state was different but black people couldn't vote, could not sue white people, could not testify in court or had limited credence.

I love the argument that Grant had no slaves because they were his father-in-laws but Lee had slaves because they were his father-in-laws.  It's all history, why do we want to relive it and re-fight the battles.  The Soviets killed most of my second cousins.  I don't blame Putin or some statue.

I dont think anyone has argued that Grant didn't own slaves... he just didn't fight for a country that seceeded for the sole purpose of defending it's right to own other people. There's context there.

history is shades of grey. The British empire as late as the 1890's spoke of the "white man's burden" even though it had been almost 100 years since they had abolished slavery in the empire.
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
But it doesn't... in any way, shape, or form. The war ended in 1865, so a statue raised in 1920 would be 55 years since the end of the war. If a person enrolled at 18 than that would make them 73.

The irony is that Lee himself didn't want memorials built after the war and preferred to have the south move on. He stated when asked, "As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated; my conviction is, that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt in the present condition of the Country, would have the effect of retarding, instead of accelerating its accomplishment; & of continuing, if not adding to, the difficulties under which the Southern people labour.." While later in the same text he noted that such statues could be erected in "better times" the question has to be asked- What would be better times?

The "Lost Cause" revisionist history started in the 1920s after Lee's death by members of KKK and other southern organizations that favoured segregation or a return to the "good old days" (which weren't actually very good... the south was extremely underdeveloped and poor). The statue in Charlottesville, Va went up in 1924, at the height of this revisionist history period (or for the Trump fans in the house, the "fake news" period).

Lee was a complex character. He both celebrated the end of slavery but noted that black southerners weren't capable of acting as a real race. His anti-slavery stance seems to be associated with the post war period, so there is a strong possibility that this change of heart was related to his need to maintain his lifestyle in a reconstructionist south rather than any change of opinion, though this is impossible to prove with any veracity.

that said, whatever the motivation for the statues, the fact that Neo-Nazis are the one taking the most offence to them being taken down should all but end any argument over what they stand for today.

And by the early 1900's Lee, like most of these veterans had been dead for some time (Lee died in 1870).

It's no coincidence that the erection of these statues and the resurgence of the KKK came in concert with the enactment of Jim Crow legislation across the South which in essence disenfranchised the Southern Blacks and enshrined segregation. It was a time of a massive reassertion of Southern white supremacy.

The formation of the United Daughters of the Confederacy, who were the architects behind this massive statue erection program, were themselves not formed until 1894. The organization was at the time, in effect, a white supremacist propaganda tool to market the "Lost Cause" myth and a romanticised version of what slavery was.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Daughters_of_the_Confederacy#Formation_and_stated_aims

:cheers:
 
milnews.ca said:
Then you're OK with the Riel statues & Riel Day holidays, right?

Why would I care?  He was a murderer, thief, kidnapper and traitor but his reign of terror ended 132 years ago.
 
Rocky Mountains said:
Why would I care?  He was a murderer, thief, kidnapper and traitor but his reign of terror ended 132 years ago.

And yet the kkk et al are still around spouting the same crap as 100+ years ago. 
 
[quote author=Bird_Gunner45]

that said, whatever the motivation for the statues, the fact that Neo-Nazis are the one taking the most offence to them being taken down should all but end any argument over what they stand for today.
[/quote]
I couldn't agree more, well said. Those dummies shouldn't be entitled to say a damn thing in North America IMO. If they want to play Nazi's then throw them in jail and tell them they can role play POWs.

 
"MSNBC Host Asks Charlottesville Victim's Mother 5 Straight Questions About Trump": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSYLWGhd01k - I am impressed by this woman.

"Lawrence Jones glad Trump 'called the enemy by its name'": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTq6qLnXjDY

"I'm a Naźí Empathizer": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doUiSTEvCcY

"Newt Gingrich: We have a two-sided violence problem": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJMlpJi2Isk

"Former Antifa organizer and former neo-Nazi talk protests": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ET1ozKHRkE

"Allen West: Left won't come out to condemn Islamic supremacy": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7kqWmcmp94
 
Rocky Mountains said:
Why would I care?  He was a murderer, thief, kidnapper and traitor but his reign of terror ended 132 years ago.

Doesn't this make you just a tiny bit hypocritical in this argument discussion? 
 
https://www.facebook.com/TooManyGreatGenres/videos/1855189954766740/?hc_ref=ARRa6lG4I-iX86xChVsCAwhCxsmroARrx2RTj-iBimgRvJPDkB_q_txrVf0OnRtNUdA
 
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/free-speech-rally-fizzles-as-counterprotesters-swarm-boston/ar-AAqkNU1

Protesters shutting down a free-speech rally. The irony of fascists labelled as anti-fascists is still hilarious, and keeps getting funnier.

There were 6 protesters that were arrested for assault causing bodily harm.

I can't wait until the Purge becomes a thing in the states because everyone will be labelled a Nazi for whatever reason and they'll have to take each other out for freedom.
 
EpicBeardedMan said:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/free-speech-rally-fizzles-as-counterprotesters-swarm-boston/ar-AAqkNU1

Protesters shutting down a free-speech rally. The irony of fascists labelled as anti-fascists is still hilarious, and keeps getting funnier.

There were 6 protesters that were arrested for assault causing bodily harm.

I can't wait until the Purge becomes a thing in the states because everyone will be labelled a Nazi for whatever reason and they'll have to take each other out for freedom.

I don't know why some folks here are so obsessed with the Neo-Nazi's right to free speech and fail to consider that counterprotestors are equally entitled to exercise their right to free speech in opposition.

There's nothing in the Constitution that values one citizen's right to free speech more than another's and most certainly does not stand for the proposition that one citizen can't try to shout down another. Being a vocal/vigorous counterprotestor to fascists does not make one a fascist themselves as you suggest. It makes one a concerned citizen.

As a reminder here's what fascists are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

The counterprotestors in Boston don't even come close to that model.

[cheers]
 
FJAG said:
I don't know why some folks here are so obsessed with the Neo-Nazi's right to free speech and fail to consider that counterprotestors are equally entitled to exercise their right to free speech in opposition.

There's nothing in the Constitution that values one citizen's right to free speech more than another's and most certainly does not stand for the proposition that one citizen can't try to shout down another. Being a vocal/vigorous counterprotestor to fascists does not make one a fascist themselves as you suggest. It makes one a concerned citizen.

As a reminder here's what fascists are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

The counterprotestors in Boston don't even come close to that model.
Who deemed the speakers at the Free Speech rally as neo nazis or racists or KKK or skinheads or other groups like that? Seems like any conservative group now are lumped in with these groups and warrant a counter protest. People are whipped into a frenzy and there is no look before you leap, just wade in and get your picture on TV being a hero for standing up to, well, anything.
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
... whatever the motivation for the statues, the fact that Neo-Nazis are the one taking the most offence to them being taken down should all but end any argument over what they stand for today.
Well put.
 
FJAG said:
Interesting article about recent Neo-Nazi march in Berlin and how Germans handle things:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/police-separate-500-neo-nazis-opponents-berlin-demo-49308299

:cheers:

How things were handled in post-war Germany,

1946

Directive No. 30, "Liquidation of German Military and Nazi Memorials and Museums".
http://www.lwl.org/westfaelische-geschichte/nstopo/normen/1946-05-13.pdf

"Every existing monument, poster, statue, edifice, street, or highway name marker, emblem, tablet or insignia, of a type the planning, designing, erection, installation, posting or other display of what is prohibited by Paragraph I of this Directive must be completely destroyed and liquidated by 1 January 1947; also all military museums and exhibitions must be closed and liquidated by 1 January 1947 throughout the entire German territory.

The following are not subject to destruction and liquidation:

a.Monuments erected solely in memory of deceased members of regular military organizations, with the exception of paramilitary organizations, the SS and Waffen SS.

b.Individual tombstones existing at present or to be erected in the future, providing the architectural designs, decorations, or inscriptions of the monuments, mentioned in paragraphs I and II do not recall militarism or commemorate the Nazi party."

 
FJAG said:
I don't know why some folks here are so obsessed with the Neo-Nazi's right to free speech and fail to consider that counterprotestors are equally entitled to exercise their right to free speech in opposition.

There's nothing in the Constitution that values one citizen's right to free speech more than another's and most certainly does not stand for the proposition that one citizen can't try to shout down another. Being a vocal/vigorous counterprotestor to fascists does not make one a fascist themselves as you suggest. It makes one a concerned citizen.

As a reminder here's what fascists are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

The counterprotestors in Boston don't even come close to that model.

[cheers]

Do you have sources that say everyone at the free speech rally was a "nazi" or are you just lumping anyone on the right a nazi like ive been saying this whole time is what libs do these days.

Also, it wasnt just nazis that were upset about the statues it was the citizens of the city as weve now seen from news sources thay arent mainstream fake news.

You cant pick and choose who has freedom of speech, lol. Either everyone has it or its not free speech. Just because youre biased against conservatives doesnt give you the right to label everyone as a Nazi and shut down their freedome to speak. Im going to start grouping the Left into Fascists and see how people like that, since you guys are so fond of taking away peoples right to free speech unless they agree with your viewpoints. Itll be a fun game, "Nazis" vs "Fascists".

thanks for the Fascist definition, the irony of you posting that while lumping people into the Nazi category who dont meet the definition of Nazi isnt lost on me either ;)
 
milnews.ca said:
If you believe Wikipedia & the Southern Poverty Law Centre, it was ~5K-8K in 2003.  The Anti-Defamation League says there's ~3K "Klan members and unaffiliated individuals who identify with Klan ideology" as of June 2017.  In one state (NJ), 9 out of 21 counties reporting a "white supremacists’ presence" - I'm going to assume they have more than one member each.

What's your source?

3000 out of 326 million people. This is your boogyman? Even after the info you just posted which shows a huge decline of members over X years, these are the guys youre worried about?

Interesting.
 
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