All things Charlottesville (merged)

[mariomike]

You're kind of proving my point by blaming some made up boogyman "fake antifa" instead of admitting that is just what they do, and what they have been doing since they've been around.

I blame no one, and admit nothing.

You keep going on about Antifa.

So, I asked a simple question, "How much of the Antifa hysteria is real, and how much is fake?"

All I know about Antifa is what you tell us, and what I read on the internet.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=fake+antifa&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=2XiwWbqwMeGfXuebtfAI&gws_rd=ssl

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

You keep going on about Antifa.


All I know about Antifa is what you tell us, and what I read on the internet.

The thread is about Charlottesville, so yes I'm talking about Antifa, I don't get your point.

So you've never seen any videos from any event where violence from Antifa occured? You just read about it? Interesting.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=mariomike]

You keep going on about Antifa.

So, I asked a simple question, "How much of the Antifa hysteria is real, and how much is fake?"

[/quote]

What exactly do you mean by ANTIFA hysteria?  The riots, attacks on free speech, assaults and threats seem pretty real.  Is there fake online accounts and profiles? I'm certain of it.

Are you suggesting these people are fake ANTIFA protestors doing stuff like this?

Or just that ANTIFA aren't as bad as people are making them out to be?

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

The thread is about Charlottesville, so yes I'm talking about Antifa, I don't get your point.

So you've never seen any videos from any event where violence from Antifa occured? You just read about it? Interesting.

Nancy Pelosi, head of the democratic party, condemned Antifa, so is that good enough?

http://www.democraticleader.gov/newsroom/82917/

A quick search of "articles condemning antifa" brings up a number of articles condemning antifa... punch in the same search with New york times, etc if you like, they're all there.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/us/antifa-left-wing-faction-far-right.html

So, antifa has been acknowledged as bad and denounced by the left. What does that change exactly? Charlottesville, make no mistake, was a product of the far right neo nazi's, KKK members, and other rejects/losers deciding to take advantage of a statue put up during a neo-confederate period/fake history being taken down to push their idiotic agenda. This collection of societal mouth breathers/slime than attracted another set of idiots, called antifa, to fight the first group of idiots fight. Both sides have been renounced and both are terrible and make no valid contribution to society. However, had the racists and their ilk not decided to profess their antiquated, uneducated, and sad views in a misguided attempt at changing history than antifa wouldn't have been there. Full stop.

Why, again, brings me back to why focusing on one side or the other makes any difference? Would it satisfy you if every network had an hour long "antifa is terrible" show on a weekly basis to go with a "Nazis, surprisingly, are bad too" show? Does recognizing antifa as bad somehow legitimize the right wing extremists or their cause? Who needs to come on and denounce them if Nancy Pelosi isn't good enough?

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

Nancy Pelosi, head of the democratic party, condemned Antifa, so is that good enough?

http://www.democraticleader.gov/newsroom/82917/

A quick search of "articles condemning antifa" brings up a number of articles condemning antifa... punch in the same search with New york times, etc if you like, they're all there.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/us/antifa-left-wing-faction-far-right.html

So, antifa has been acknowledged as bad and denounced by the left. What does that change exactly? Charlottesville, make no mistake, was a product of the far right neo nazi's, KKK members, and other rejects/losers deciding to take advantage of a statue put up during a neo-confederate period/fake history being taken down to push their idiotic agenda. This collection of societal mouth breathers/slime than attracted another set of idiots, called antifa, to fight the first group of idiots fight. Both sides have been renounced and both are terrible and make no valid contribution to society. However, had the racists and their ilk not decided to profess their antiquated, uneducated, and sad views in a misguided attempt at changing history than antifa wouldn't have been there. Full stop.

Why, again, brings me back to why focusing on one side or the other makes any difference? Would it satisfy you if every network had an hour long "antifa is terrible" show on a weekly basis to go with a "Nazis, surprisingly, are bad too" show? Does recognizing antifa as bad somehow legitimize the right wing extremists or their cause? Who needs to come on and denounce them if Nancy Pelosi isn't good enough?

You're very good at putting words in other peoples mouths.

None of my comments were directed to you first of all, they were directed to mariomike who insists on defending them for some unknown reason.

It makes a difference so that people can identify who the people are that are causing bodily harm and property damage at every event so that the authorities can combat the problem. Or are you suggesting we just keep blaming the KKK boogyman and alt-right for every single problem that exists in the world?

BTW all the "articles condeming antifa" are super recent unless belonging to a conservative media source. Proving my point again, thanks.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

You're very good at putting words in other peoples mouths.

None of my comments were directed to you first of all, they were directed to mariomike who insists on defending them for some unknown reason.

It makes a difference so that people can identify who the people are that are causing bodily harm and property damage at every event so that the authorities can combat the problem. Or are you suggesting we just keep blaming the KKK boogyman and alt-right for every single problem that exists in the world?

BTW all the "articles condeming antifa" are super recent unless belonging to a conservative media source. Proving my point again, thanks.

I didn't know that I couldn't post on something when I see something I disagree with, nor did I put words into anyone's mouth. I also dont think mariomike was defending antifa, but simply going along the same line of questioning that I am- why does proving antifa is bad over and over matter so much? Does it somehow legitimize the alt-right?

I had a legitimate question- when is it good enough? Your point seems to be that though "the left" condemned antifa at the highest levels it was only recently, which somehow changes something. You argued the left is ignoring antifa, which I showed was false. Then it was "they only recently condemned it". But this is irrelevant as the action occurred. So if your point was that antifa was in fact disavowed, but not in the most timely fashion (Like Trump not immediately condemning KKK/Nazis?) than your point is valid. If you're trying to use this to prove that antifa is bad than I think the points been made by everyone..... so once again, when is it good enough? When have we proven that one group of idiots is as bad as another group of idiots? Please clarify because I'm legitimately curious. Finally, does the right to free speech of the KKK and other alt-right somehow invalidate the free speech rights of anyone else to come protest their free speech? The right to free speech is free from government persecution... it's not an invitation to have a soap box, a right to violate anyone else's rights, be listened to, or be protested by others in society. If I want to go to a neo nazi rally and call them idiots all day I have that right. Where antifa is wrong is the violent aspect, which certainly cannot and should not be tolerated in a functioning society. If the counter-protest had simply lined up and called them all losers than I wouldn't have a single issue with it.

As for the last part, I thought it was pretty clear- both sides are to blame. There's no "kkk boogeyman" there is only the KKK. Neo-nazi's and the KKK SHOULD, 100%, be condemned at every possible opportunity in the most explicit, but non-violent way possible by any element of society that communicate with. There is no room in our society for these people, full stop.  In case it wasn't clear- I think that the alt-right is the bastion of some of the worst people in the world and wish that they would just disappear from the earth. I also disagree with fighting these people with violence since it's really the only language they understand. You continually say "the left" but there is no "left". Left and right are simple parts of a line chart that make it easy for political science/social studies students to understand the different political movements. Neither is bad until you get to the fringes. Stating one side or the other is bad because of the fringe is intellectually bankrupt and certainly not accurate.

 

[mariomike]

Are you suggesting these people are fake ANTIFA protestors doing stuff like this?

Jarnhammer, you are more of an Antifa SME than I am. 

Which is why I asked how much of what I read / see / hear about Antifa on the internet is true, or fake?
https://www.google.ca/search?q=fake+antifa&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=o4SwWYbIIZSR8Qf0qbTQBw&gws_rd=ssl

I also read this,
"I found that there were 3,342 total murders on U.S. soil caused by terrorists from 1992 through August 12, 2017. Of those, Islamists were responsible for 92 percent, Nationalist and Right Wing terrorists for about 7 percent, and Left Wing terrorists for less than one percent."
https://www.cato.org/blog/terrorism-deaths-ideology-excluding-outlier-attacks

You're very good at putting words in other peoples mouths.

None of my comments were directed to you first of all, they were directed to mariomike who insists on defending them for some unknown reason.

Speaking of putting words in others people's mouths,

Nancy Pelosi, head of the democratic party, condemned Antifa, so is that good enough?

http://www.democraticleader.gov/newsroom/82917/

It's good enough for me. Ditto.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Bird_Gunner45] However, had the racists and their ilk not decided to profess their antiquated, uneducated, and sad views in a misguided attempt at changing history than antifa wouldn't have been there. Full stop.
[/quote]

So just don't piss off ANTIFA and there won't be a problem.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

So just don't piss off ANTIFA and there won't be a problem.

Unlike the nazi's and KKK who have traditionally maintained peaceful views?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Jarnhammer, you are more of an Antifa SME than I am. 

Which is why I asked how much of what I read / see / hear about Antifa on the internet is true, or fake?
https://www.google.ca/search?q=fake+antifa&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=o4SwWYbIIZSR8Qf0qbTQBw&gws_rd=ssl

I also read this,
"I found that there were 3,342 total murders on U.S. soil caused by terrorists from 1992 through August 12, 2017. Of those, Islamists were responsible for 92 percent, Nationalist and Right Wing terrorists for about 7 percent, and Left Wing terrorists for less than one percent."
https://www.cato.org/blog/terrorism-deaths-ideology-excluding-outlier-attacks

I hope I didn't come across as rude or condescending MarioMike I legitimately didn't understand what you were asking or implying.

I've read right wing nutjobs have killed more people than left wing nut jobs too. Totally believe it. If we're going for kill rations then dogs and children are responsible for more deaths than the left too. (a surprising number actually).
But personally I don't see the threat so much as murders (though the guy who tried to assassinate a senator in June definitely tried) but more about the chaos, intimidation, violence and attack on free speech that these nutjobs are doing.

They don't just protest they actively try to shut people down from speaking. They don't just target Neo-Nazis but anyone they don't agree with.

I do see that more and more people are starting to jump on the anti-Antifa disavowing but among the left and especially the media it's as EpicBeardedMan points out, very recent.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Unlike the nazi's and KKK who have traditionally maintained peaceful views?

Or Islam.

The problem here is that the people who are supposed to be the biggest assholes, KKK and Neo-Nazis aren't the worst behaved or most violent. I personally don't see them as the biggest threat in the mix.  The anti-white male rhetoric constantly coming from parts of the left (don't want to generalize and say all) probably push a lot of whites towards the suppremist bullshit too.

 

[mariomike]

I hope I didn't come across as rude or condescending MarioMike I legitimately didn't understand what you were asking or implying.

Not at all. I hope I wasn't either.

I was not directly, but was somewhat familiar with this sort of thing here in Toronto, Jarnhamar.

We had the Canadian Nazi Party in Toronto. ( Later they re-named themselves the National Socialist Party - guess it sounded kinder and gentler than Nazi. )
They had a violent encounter with Jewish activists at a rally in Allan Gardens.

The chief of police said it was the biggest riot in the city since the old swastika riots back in the 1930's.

Later, there was Heritage Front. They used to rumble with the Anti-Racist Action Network ( ARA ).
I guess that was the local version of Antifa in those days.

We had Ernst Zundel!  'nuff said.

It never ends, really:

July 13, 2017
Outrage Continues Following the Toronto Public Library’s Decision to Allow Gathering of Neo-Nazis
http://torontoist.com/2017/07/outrage-continues-following-toronto-public-librarys-decision-allow-gathering-neo-nazis/

I believe times change, people don't. 

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

Every time someone has anything negative to say about Antifa you deflect it.

Here it is - again,

Reply #466
https://milnet.ca/forums/threads/126345/post-1502319.html#msg1502319
At the bottom.

( My apologies, EpicBeardedMan. Looks like I accidentally hit the Modify, rather than the Quote, button in my reply to you. )

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Or Islam.

The problem here is that the people who are supposed to be the biggest assholes, KKK and Neo-Nazis aren't the worst behaved or most violent. I personally don't see them as the biggest threat in the mix.  The anti-white male rhetoric constantly coming from parts of the left (don't want to generalize and say all) probably push a lot of whites towards the suppremist bullshit too.

But that's the rub. The Nazi's and KKK stand for hatred, racism, and in the case of the nazi's the extermination of entire groups of people (ie- the holocaust). They dont really need to go around punching people in the face to be identified as an actual threat to people since it's literally in their dogma. Therein, they ARE the biggest assholes. If someone is polite but believes that you should be gassed than i would posit that there's enough validation that he's a terrible person and a threat than if he was actually violent. In Charlottesville the nazi's were preaching death to Jews. Just because they didn't assault a jew doesn't somehow lesson the belief that all Jews should die.

As for the anti-white male stuff, I would also posit that it's over blown. Yes, there are elements of the left that are anti-male, spew crap about white privelage, etc etc etc, but this is a very recent phenomena. The minorities, women, gays, jews, etc have spent a lifetime/generations of being prejudiced against by a system and have built a disdain for elements of that system, including statues that idolize a south that fought for slavery (ie- their families being property), the whole point of the statue being taken down. If the white man is joining supremacist groups because of the reduction of the biases in the system than why would anyone expect minorities not to do the same? The angry white man existed long before SJWs

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

As for the anti-white male stuff, I would also posit that it's over blown. Yes, there are elements of the left that are anti-male, spew crap about white privelage, etc etc etc, but this is a very recent phenomena. The minorities, women, gays, jews, etc have spent a lifetime/generations of being prejudiced against by a system and have built a disdain for elements of that system, including statues that idolize a south that fought for slavery (ie- their families being property), the whole point of the statue being taken down. If the white man is joining supremacist groups because of the reduction of the biases in the system than why would anyone expect minorities not to do the same? The angry white man existed long before SJWs

They also burnt/ruined a statue of Abraham Lincoln...the man who freed the slaves. What's the logic there?

 

[dimsum]

They also burnt/ruined a statue of Abraham Lincoln...the man who freed the slaves. What's the logic there?

Genuinely, non-sarcasticly, source? 

Just b/c I hadn't seen it in the news yet.

 

[mariomike]

Genuinely, non-sarcasticly, source? 

Was a Bust of Abraham Lincoln Vandalized in Chicago in Protest of Confederate Statues?
http://www.snopes.com/lincoln-bust-vandalized-confederate/

A bust of Abraham Lincoln was vandalized in Chicago, but it's unclear who did it and when it happened.

At the bottom of the story there are various photographs of the statue taken as far back as 2006 that show it has been repeatedly vandalized. It may be no longer recognizable to some.

 

[Scott]

Perhaps folks ought to post links when they make such claims - so others don't have to do their digging for them?

Grand idea: let's do that!

Scott
Staff

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

Was a Bust of Abraham Lincoln Vandalized in Chicago in Protest of Confederate Statues?
http://www.snopes.com/lincoln-bust-vandalized-confederate/

A bust of Abraham Lincoln was vandalized in Chicago, but it's unclear who did it and when it happened.

At the bottom of the story there are various photographs of the statue taken as far back as 2006 that show it has been repeatedly vandalized. It may be no longer recognizable to some.

Oh okay, it was vandalized before, that's okay then. Silly kids, am I right?

Dont forget the lincoln memorial being vandalized! To be fair, they probably didnt recognize who it was due to some pieces of gum on the ground.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/08/15/politics/lincoln-memorial-vandalized/index.html

 

[mariomike]

Dont forget the lincoln memorial being vandalized!

"This is not the first time that national monuments in DC have been tampered with. In February, the World War II, DC War Memorial, Washington Monument and the Lincoln Memorial were all vandalized with conspiracy-filled graffiti.

The graffiti consisted of text written in sharpie or magic marker, officials said, and included the words "Jackie shot JFK" and a message related to the September 11 attacks, according to US Park Police spokesperson Sgt. Anna Rose.

Back in 2013, the statues of Abraham Lincoln inside the Lincoln Memorial and Joseph Henry, outside the headquarters of the Smithsonian Institution, were also vandalized with green paint."
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/15/politics/lincoln-memorial-vandalized/

Regarding military statues, cenotaphs and memorials being vandalized.
We have a 29-page thread on that - just in Canada alone.
Unfortunately, it is not infrequent.

Who does it and why is seldom determined.

Vandalism of any public or private property, anytime or anywhere, by anyone, for any reason is NEVER OK.