All Things First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, residential schools, etc. (merged)

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Altair]

Arrest them,  and 2 more blockades pop up. Arrest those and two more pop up for each one. Suddenly you've gone from 1 economically disruptive protest to 4. Again,  there are close to a million first nations in this country,  engaging in whack a mole will drag this out and eventually someone is going to get hurt/die
[/quote]
A million first nations protestors, that could be trouble.

Good thing most First Nations seem to be in support of the pipelines. Because it gives them jobs, security and independence (from begging for handouts from crooked chiefs)
And most protestors seem to be of design.

 

[Altair]

So your solution is we just let them do whatever they want? Or give in to their demands and make this an acceptable means of public policy discourse?  :facepalm:

Whatever they want?  No. If they start doing really dangerous things like putting cars on rails,  firing weapons,  trying to damage or destroy tracks,  naturally stop and arrest them.

But if they are doing relatively harmless(to a train)  things like putting flimsy pallets and lighting then on fire,  I dont see that as being worth the headache it would cause to arrest them.

 

[PuckChaser]

Whatever they want?  No. If they start doing really dangerous things like putting cars on rails,  firing weapons,  trying to damage or destroy tracks,  naturally stop and arrest them.

But if they are doing relatively harmless(to a train)  things like putting flimsy pallets and lighting then on fire,  I dont see that as being worth the headache it would cause to arrest them.

In case you haven't been paying attention, they've been doing all those things. Pallets are the mildest thing that's been done.

 

[Quirky]

There are a million first nations individuals in our country.

Lethal force on them will radicalize a good amount of them.  If even 1 percent become violent radicals,  that's 10 000 who would need to be dealt with.

So how about no.

The violent radicals are not native, they don't put face masks on and go on camera. The huge majority of the vigilantes are white dudes that are paid off by interest groups wanting to destabilise the Canadian energy industry. Most of the FN I've seen, on TV anyway, sit next to or on the tracks in their protests.

Whatever they want?  No. If they start doing really dangerous things like putting cars on rails,  firing weapons,  trying to damage or destroy tracks,  naturally stop and arrest them.

But if they are doing relatively harmless(to a train)  things like putting flimsy pallets and lighting then on fire,  I dont see that as being worth the headache it would cause to arrest them.

That's a stupid argument. The ends does not justify the means. So by your logic, I can fly a small drone into an airliner on takeoff or approach, but since it won't really do any damage, it's not worth the headache to stop me?  :facepalm:

The media hasn't helped this situation at all either. Every time they run a story on this crap it just fuels the fire. Ignore the protests, stop giving them coverage and let the authorities handle it properly without everything being scrutinized on a camera. The woke unemployed college grads will move on and concentrate their efforts elsewhere.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'll take a big pass on enforcing laws only when it's convenient or PC.

 

[mariomike]

P.s I am hoping the blockade up here starts again so I can stay home on pay and go to the science fair with son this friday ^^ so w00t go blockaders! Hahaha

Hope it ends soon. I would love to ride 100 miles with you, Abdullah. 

This blockade would have driven my old man nuts.

 

[Altair]

In case you haven't been paying attention, they've been doing all those things. Pallets are the mildest thing that's been done.

Which is why I say just let them throw pallets until the situation is over. If they escalate beyond that and actually stop rail traffic,  arrest them.

But as long as rail traffic is actually moving what's the point in escalating the situation?

 

[Altair]

The violent radicals are not native, they don't put face masks on and go on camera. The huge majority of the vigilantes are white dudes that are paid off by interest groups wanting to destabilise the Canadian energy industry. Most of the FN I've seen, on TV anyway, sit next to or on the tracks in their protests.

I have yet to see any violent radicals to date. I have seen people peacefully, but illegally stop trains. I've seen other FN block the BC legislature. Some others distrupting a highway near oka.

That's a stupid argument. The ends does not justify the means. So by your logic, I can fly a small drone into an airliner on takeoff or approach, but since it won't really do any damage, it's not worth the headache to stop me?  :facepalm:

not what I'm saying. Planes are a lot more fragile than trains. A more comparable analogy in the case of planes is having a group of protestors throwing paper airplanes at planes taking off. If that was the case,  I would say let them.

The media hasn't helped this situation at all either. Every time they run a story on this crap it just fuels the fire. Ignore the protests, stop giving them coverage and let the authorities handle it properly without everything being scrutinized on a camera. The woke unemployed college grads will move on and concentrate their efforts elsewhere.

To not realize how many first nations are not happy with what is happening in BC (while recognizing a lot of them are) would be a critical error.

As for telling the media what to cover,  that is some authoritarian level nonsense. France had a year of protests,  and they didn't limit the press in doing their job. They arrested who needed to be arrested and eventually the protestors ran out of steam.

 

[MilEME09]

Was reading a good article today about the labeling of some of these more radical actions as terrorism, and while most of the boxes are ticked, a key one isnt, the intent to harm or kill people. Arguement could be made trying to derail a train is that intent but that's a legal grey area

 

[Altair]

I'll take a big pass on enforcing laws only when it's convenient or PC.

Shame.

Canadian police forces don't seem eager to antagonize first nations if they don't absolutely need to. Even gung ho Francois legault has the SQ taking a very patience and deliberately approach to dealing with potentially armed first nations south of montreal.

 

[The Bread Guy]

MOAR polling tea leaves to read - highlights mine ...

As mass arrests and burning tires along rail lines define the state of developments in a country-wide series of blockades in protest against a $6.6 billion natural gas pipeline being built by Coastal Gaslink in northern BC, Canadians are profoundly divided over how to handle the situation.

A new study from the non-profit Angus Reid Institute, conducted February 25-26, finds nearly half (47%) say patience and dialogue with those opposed to the project is the best way to resolution. The other half (53%), however, say that these blockades should be brought down using whatever force is necessary.

These two perspectives strongly correlate with lines of demarcation over what Canadians believe to be the most important aspect of the ongoing conflict. Just over half (56%) say it is economic issues or the rule of law. Just under half (44%) instead say the most important aspects are either Indigenous or environmental issues. Each takes a markedly different view of how the blockades should be handled.

Whatever side of the issue they are on, Canadians agree that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has not handled the crisis well. Just one-in-five Canadians (21%) say that the Prime Minister has done a good job (a mere three per cent say “very good”).

More Key Findings:
Canadians overwhelmingly feel that this saga has been a step backward for relations between Canada and Indigenous peoples. 80 per cent feel that reconciliation has been negatively affected by the ongoing events
There is also a sense that these blockades have done damage to Canada’s reputation as a place for investment. 78 per cent of Canadians feel the blockades have hurt this aspect of the country
Six-in-ten Canadians (62%) say that the blockades that have been erected in recent weeks are out of line, and not a legitimate way to protest. That said, nearly the same number of Canadians feel that protesters are genuine (56%)
Support for the Coastal Gaslink project has grown over the past two weeks, rising from 51 per cent in early February to 61 per cent now ...

 

[PuckChaser]

But as long as rail traffic is actually moving what's the point in escalating the situation?

Until someone is killed or a massive ecological disaster happens because a train is derailed? There's a reason why its illegal to trespass on railways.

 

[YZT580]

And have a care for the fellow sitting in the cab of the diesel barrelling down on the protesters.  If they don't jump in time, he has to live with it so it isn't theoretical he doesn't deserve PTSD counselling for simply trying to do his job.  The trains are running so clear the tracks.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Protests are a classic example of "what is seen" versus "what is unseen".  All the comments regarding concerns for safety and security are focused only on the direct protest.  No-one attempts to measure all the second-hand harm.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Shame.

Canadian police forces don't seem eager to antagonize first nations if they don't absolutely need to. Even gung ho Francois legault has the SQ taking a very patience and deliberately approach to dealing with potentially armed first nations south of montreal.

Was that the argument where they said they wouldn't go near the protestors because they have prohibited illegally owned AK47 assault rifles?

If so, do you see anytning wrong with that whole situation?

 

[Altair]

Was that the argument where they said they wouldn't go near the protestors because they have prohibited illegally owned AK47 assault rifles?

If so, do you see anytning wrong with that whole situation?

yes

 

[mariomike]

So they could have effectively stopped that train by being idiots on the rail, to many people commit suicide via trains and it is a very real fear when we go to work, that we may kill someone who just wants to end their life.

My dad was a CNR / VIA Rail locomotive engineer from 1946 - 1991. So I guess you know the same truth he did: If you drive trains, you kill people.

 

[Czech_pivo]

A great article in my humble opinion.

This is the level-headed approach that is needed.

https://news.google.com/articles/CBMidWh0dHBzOi8vbmF0aW9uYWxwb3N0LmNvbS9vcGluaW9uL2RhdmlkLWNoYXJ0cmFuZC10aGUtd2V0c3V3ZXRlbi1ibG9ja2FkZXMtZG9lcy1ldmVyeW9uZS1rbm93LXdoYXQtdGhleXJlLWZpZ2h0aW5nLWZvctIBeWh0dHBzOi8vbmF0aW9uYWxwb3N0LmNvbS9vcGluaW9uL2RhdmlkLWNoYXJ0cmFuZC10aGUtd2V0c3V3ZXRlbi1ibG9ja2FkZXMtZG9lcy1ldmVyeW9uZS1rbm93LXdoYXQtdGhleXJlLWZpZ2h0aW5nLWZvci9hbXA?hl=en-CA&gl=CA&ceid=CA%3Aen

 

[Jarnhamar]

yes

How embrassing for Quebec's government and police.

 

[Weinie]

I have yet to see any violent radicals to date. I have seen people peacefully, but illegally stop trains. I've seen other FN block the BC legislature. Some others distrupting a highway near oka.  not what I'm saying. Planes are a lot more fragile than trains. A more comparable analogy in the case of planes is having a group of protestors throwing paper airplanes at planes taking off. If that was the case,  I would say let them. To not realize how many first nations are not happy with what is happening in BC (while recognizing a lot of them are) would be a critical error.

As for telling the media what to cover,  that is some authoritarian level nonsense. France had a year of protests,  and they didn't limit the press in doing their job. They arrested who needed to be arrested and eventually the protestors ran out of steam.

You have struck a balance between Gandhi and Neville Chamberlain. Hope this works out well for all of us.