Alternate for the CIC

[CrashBear]

Just as a side note; I was visiting other forums and one especially involving my old Mil Trade and find that the same type of comments that are in this forum regarding training are being expressed in others.  That of Lack of trg being recieved by Reserve force personnel.  Maybe it's a common thread for reservists to recieve the minimum to meet requirements and if required to recieve the training needed to augment.

 

[Neill McKay]

Everyone in the CF aside from the CIC have a direct role in the domestic and international security of Canada. And no one should being up the dental and padres, because how do you keep a soldiers head in the game, if his jaw is rotting out and his wife left him for the mail man.

What about PAffOs and musicians?  Soldiers or not?

Now to those CIC out there who are arguing that they are just like the PRes or Reg Force and feel the need to consistantly tell people that there commission is a real commission and they are soldiers, please get over yourselves, maybe you aren't in it for the kids(good question to ask yourselves) and just maybe you don't have what it takes to PRes or Reg Force and you have to go through life as a wannabee, and are using the CIC as a conduit for those crushed dreams of serving the the army.

Those kinds of comments, when they are made, are more apt to be reactionary -- no-one goes around saying "my commission is real" until several reg. force or p. res. types have said it isn't.  (In other words, and with a bit of levity, you started it! )

I believe the wannabes are very small in number.  It just wouldn't be worthwhile to do it.  For someone not interested in being a CIC officer for the sake of actually doing that job, I think it would be a hellish way to spend your Wednesday evenings.

I don't see the CIC as being fundamentally different from certain other staff types in support roles.  Most CF members participate in, or directly support those who participate in, combat activities.  But a few MOCs such as the PAffOs and musicians I've mentionned above, and CIC officers, do not.  (In fact, SAR techs might be lumped into that category as service members whose main function, occasional combat SAR missions notwithstanding, is to serve the public in a way unrelated to the war-making capacity of the Forces.  Ditto for Snowbird pilots WSE.)

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Re Snowbird pilots. Well considering close formation flying and aerobatic manuevers can help save a fighter pilots life in combat I don't think Snowbird pilots should be there.

 

[Inch]

McKay, while I'll agree with SAR techs not really being part of the war machine that is the CF, it's job we've been saddled with in the CF because no one else in the country can afford to perform SAR to the extent that we can. Combat SAR is non-existent in the CF, so your "occasional combat SAR missions notwithstanding" comment is RTFO'er unless you know something that we don't.

As for the Snowbirds, precision flying is the hallmark of great aviators. Only the best get chosen for the Snowbirds from across the CF, almost all of them have had operational flying tours on a variety of aircraft prior to going to the Snowbirds and while 431 AD Sqn may not be a front line unit, the experience those guys get is invaluable when they go back to operational Sqns.

I apologize for the hijack, but yes I do lump PAFFOs and Musicians into the war machine, can you quantify morale boosting and selling us to the taxpayer? It's all part of the machine, and I agree with others that CIC's play no real role in the machine.

For the record, PAFFO's and Musicians still do annual quals on the C7 (or they're supposed to) and they've all gone through basic training consisting of the same PO's as the crunchies, zoomies and fishheads.

 

[McG]

What about PAffOs and musicians?   Soldiers or not?

Managing information is an important part of war.  PAffOs contribute to this.  Connecting with Canadians (that one militarily relevant roll that I'd suggested CIC also cover) is the bread & butter of the PAffO.  PAffOs may not be the pointy end of things, but they do contribute to the operational effectiveness of the CF.

Bandsmen . . . hmm.  To be honest, I'd be okay if we had to drop a few of them to put more money into other parts of our forces.

 

[CrashBear]

Those kinds of comments, when they are made, are more apt to be reactionary -- no-one goes around saying "my commission is real" until several reg. force or p. res. types have said it isn't.   (In other words, and with a bit of levity, you started it! )

I believe the wannabes are very small in number.   It just wouldn't be worthwhile to do it.   For someone not interested in being a CIC officer for the sake of actually doing that job, I think it would be a hellish way to spend your Wednesday evenings.

Well Neil while I concur with what you are saying, I really don't think these folk's types of comments really deserve any response as they obviously lack both experience and maturity.

Bandsmen . . . hmm.   To be honest, I'd be okay if we had to drop a few of them to put more money into other parts of our forces.

Obviously havn't worked very much in dealing with Govt service. Once they take the funds away it's lost. Also too easy to use the whitewash brush.

 

[McG]

Obviously havn't worked very much in dealing with Govt service. Once they take the funds away it's lost. Also too easy to use the whitewash brush.

No.  That's fine.

 

[goodform]

2332Piper,
I agree that for combat operations the CIC are not a required component of the CF. But if you look at the mission statement of the DND and CF http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/about/mission_e.asp

The mission of the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces is to defend Canada, its interests and its values, while contributing to international peace and security.

Under Canadian defence policy, the Canadian Forces are called upon to fill three major roles:

Protecting Canada

Defending North America in co-operation with the United States of America

Contributing to peace and international security

I don't want to sound angry, I'm not, but that shows the CIC has a role in the achieving the mission of the DND/CF on a day to day basis, and is therefor valuable.

edited for grammar

 

[McG]

I don't want to sound angry, I'm not, but that shows the CIC has a role in the achieving the mission of the DND/CF on a day to day basis, and is therefor valuable.

Would you mind expanding on this thought?


The Bandsman debate has moved:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/29192.0.html

 

[Neill McKay]

Actually, look up your history. There have been instances of bandsmen winning VC's (mostly in WW1) and they contributed directly to the moral of the troops and were in the thick of the fighting in every major battle.

No argument there.  However, we no longer send musicians onto the battlefield. Topic relocated here

These days, our job is to promote the CF in the eye of the public and contribute to parades (all military parades need music, thats how it has always been) and other official functions, and (in those units that actually let us train as such) to act as infantrymen as a secondary role. PAffo's, well, thats already been explained. SAR techs, we are the only org with the capabilities and resources to do this job. Snowbird pilots, promoting the CF to the public.

All these trades have their place in the machine, as was already said. Don't degrade other trades to try to justify yours,

Hang on, now.   I haven't said anything to degrade any trade.   My point is that CIC officers are among the trades whose role is more related to non-combat service to the Canadian public, as opposed to closing with the destroying the enemy or feeding and clothing those who do.   I don't for a minute mean to diminish the importance of the Public Affairs or Band branches, any more than I do the CIC branch.

it has been clearly established that although the CIC provides a valuable service to the YOUTH of Canada (like Boy Scout leaders, hockey coaches and teachers do), they do not provide a valuable or necessary service to the CF,

I disagree -- it hasn't been established at all; that's the very crux of this discussion.

Yes, the CIC does a usefull job, keeping youth occupied and allowing them to turn themselves into something better. BUT, as members of the CF, they are the only trade that do not contribute at all to the day-to-day or operational jobs of the CF.

Once again I disagree.

 

[Neill McKay]

Re Snowbird pilots. Well considering close formation flying and aerobatic manuevers can help save a fighter pilots life in combat I don't think Snowbird pilots should be there.

Fair enough -- if the Snowbirds are intended to be a training outfit, then that's quite different from my impression that they were strictly intended as a demonstration squadron.

 

[McG]

But for arguments sake, tell me, what does the CIC do that contributes to the overall combat effectiveness or operational success of any part of the CF?

Connect with Canadians.

 

[goodform]

The mission of the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces is to defend Canada, its interests and its values, while contributing to international peace and security.

The mission of the Canadian Cadet Movement is to develop in youth the attributes of good citizenship and leadership, to promote physical fitness, and to stimulate an interest in the Canadian Forces.

I believe that Canada is very interested in its youth, and wants them to have certain values. The CIC contributes to the mission of the DND/CF by having a role of helping develop youth as its aim. Just like the infantry is to "close with and destroy the enemy" as its main mission, which contributes to the mission of the DND/CF, it is the job of the CIC continue the CCM, which also contributes to the mission of the DND/CF.

 

[CrashBear]

Yes it has. But for arguments sake, tell me, what does the CIC do that contributes to the overall combat effectiveness or operational success of any part of the CF? Apart from the few CIC officers that have needed skills (which is the same reason we have the sup reserve) that would be called up in time of crisis, what does the CIC contribute to the CF on a day to day basis? Don't say 'encouraging kids to join', thats what the recruiting system is there for.

That proof has been provided to both you and others in previous posts linking to legitimate websites.  Lets reverse the question and ask you to provided proof other that your personal feelings that the CIC does not provided a legitimate role to the CF.

 

[Neill McKay]

But for arguments sake, tell me, what does the CIC do that contributes to the overall combat effectiveness or operational success of any part of the CF? Apart from the few CIC officers that have needed skills (which is the same reason we have the sup reserve) that would be called up in time of crisis, what does the CIC contribute to the CF on a day to day basis? Don't say 'encouraging kids to join', thats what the recruiting system is there for.

Which do you think would produce larger numbers of recruits: the recruiting system acting alone, or the recruiting system supported by the CCM, with 4000 officers stimulating an interest in the activities of the CF among 50,000 cadets?   I think the CIC makes a significant contribution to recruiting.

The CIC also plays a role in keeping the Forces in the public eye, just as PAffOs do, although perhaps in a less direct way.   My earlier comparison to musicians has another dimension to it: in many (too many) areas, the closest thing to a military band that can be mustered for Remembrance Day or Canada Day parades is the local cadet band, many of which do yeoman service in providing some modicum of military presence where there would otherwise be none.

This public awareness function takes place at several levels: First, there are the cadets themselves learn something about the Forces and why we have them.   Even those who don't go on to join up will at least go through life with an appreciation for the Forces, and will be less likely to be among the civilians who are forever asking "why do we waste money on the Forces instead of spending it on health care?"

The next level is the families of the cadets, who may not take away as much as the cadets themselves, but will at least have had some level of exposure to the Forces when they mightn't have otherwise.

Finally, the rest of the population who see cadets in public, for example in the form of a band at the Remembrance Day parade as noted above.   Someone in a region far removed from the coasts is apt to have the navy entered into his consciousness when the hometown sea cadet unit takes to the streets, and that can only be good.

In performing these PR and recruiting support functions for price of a pittance of classroom training and 23 days pay a year, the CIC is the best bargain going!

 

[COBRA-6]

For those of you who continue to insist that the CIC contributes to the overall combat/operational effectiveness of the CF I pose the following question: what is the role of the CIC in an operational theatre??

 

[CrashBear]

None and has not been implied;

The indirect role of the CIC in the operational effectiveness of the CF is to perform the role mandated under legislation to the CF for the operation of a youth organization.  As stated in previous threads the CIC was formed to take care of that mandate there by not requiring the operational personnel in their limited form of having to perfom these duties with limited resources.

 

[Neill McKay]

For those of you who continue to insist that the CIC contributes to the overall combat/operational effectiveness of the CF I pose the following question: what is the role of the CIC in an operational theatre??

I'm not sure if you've read the thread so far, but your question is addressed above.  My brief version is: none, but it plays an indirect role in the overall welfare of the Forces just as certain other branches without direct combat or combat support roles do.

 

[elscotto937]

I believe that Canada is very interested in its youth, and wants them to have certain values. The CIC contributes to the mission of the DND/CF by having a role of helping develop youth as its aim. Just like the infantry is to "close with and destroy the enemy" as its main mission, which contributes to the mission of the DND/CF, it is the job of the CIC continue the CCM, which also contributes to the mission of the DND/CF.

Legars, I'm afraid your going to spell it out, because I'm not making the leap, between the CF's mission and the mission of the CCM as you have indicated.

Ok, I know this has been beat to heck, but there are some new members responding to the thread, so I'll pose the question, what if the CIC were not given a commission,  but as members of the CF with a special status similar to the Rangers that allowed them to lead cadet units and instruct and run summer training establishments, but they have minimal status when it comes to dealing with other componets of the CF. Other than allowing the Cadets to believe they are real elements of the CF, having real commissioned officers as their leaders is not really required.  Second part of the question, if that was done would it eliminate some of  problems. 

 

[CrashBear]

Ok, I know this has been beat to heck, but there are some new members responding to the thread, so I'll pose the question, what if the CIC were not given a commission,   but as members of the CF with a special status similar to the Rangers that allowed them to lead cadet units and instruct and run summer training establishments, but they have minimal status when it comes to dealing with other componets of the CF. Other than allowing the Cadets to believe they are real elements of the CF, having real commissioned officers as their leaders is not really required.   Second part of the question, if that was done would it eliminate some of   problems.  

I finally agree with you on this. Before this thread got hijacked, I posed a number of questions that none have answered.  If the CCM program was to fall to a ranger type of program would the appropriate training be provided and not how it's being provided now or would it be another bungle?

If the mandate is to remain the same would it still be as accountable for the safety of the youth as it is now, or would it be along the lines of other youth organizations?