Ammo Budgets and Training Expenses

[KevinB]

I would prefer small arms ammo - over 84 - IF given the choice.

I understand the point about the scale of the Army - but given the fact CTS squandered millions on the wet weather boot sole fiasco -- then replacing the perfectly serviceable OD Gortex with CADPAT  :  - someone needs to seriously smash some heads to make SOLDIER SKILLS the number ONE priority.

I remember the prices the CF pays for ammo -- now I can go out in Fla and source 5.56mm (SS109/M855/C77 type ammo) for $150 /1000 -- so that tells me another thigns about how screwed up the CF acquisition process is. 

The fact of the matter is that in counter insurgency warfare that the LIGHT Infantryman is KING -- fast air and artillery are not as usefull as some of the talking heads make beleive.  Troops with proper marksmanship training will be a force multiplier - as one they will prolong their lives with accurate and timely shooting --- and unlike uncontroleld CAS and Artillery doesnot increase the size of an insurgency due to "collatoral" damage of civilians.

If it where up to me -- I'd scrap LAV funding (ammo etc.) for the Inf -- and concentrate on the basic soldier skills that are needed to survive and triumph in the GWOT

 

[Kirkhill]

So 2B wants to keep all 30,000 up to a reasonable level of proficiency.  He thinks he can do that with 500 rounds per year - about a 5 to 9-fold increase over the amounts that some others are reporting they are currently allocated. 15,000,000 rounds

Infidel is calling for 5000 (per year?) to maintain the proficiency of riflemen in the CF - 9 Coys x 150 troops = 1350 troops total, let's say 1500 max to allow for recce troops and armoured GIBs.  5000 times 1500 = 7,500,000 rounds.

Combined total 22,500,000 rounds.  Is there room for compromise?

EDIT: Note the above numbers were ICNs (Insufficiently Caffeinated Numbers).  The number of Coys obviously should be 27 not 9 so now we are talking 4000 to 5000 troops.  At 5000 troops and 5000 rounds per, that equals 25,000,000 on top of the 15,000,000 for a total of 40,000,000.  :-[ Je suis embarraseed.  Still the principle stands.  Any chance of a compromise?

 

[KevinB]

9 BN's with aprox 650 PY's

roughly 5850
caveat: CSOR and JTF will do their own thing (I doubt that the CF will allow a 031 to fire 50k + rounds a year)

As well that ammo (5k) I beleive is required is for range (both KD and CQB) training -- not for field ex's - which will add to the amounts.

Say another 2,000 Cbt arms trades that need to shoot (Engineers, FOO's and Recce Sqn etc.) @ min 1500 rds

So 5850x5000 + 2000x1500

so 29,250,000 + 3,000,000 rounds for them

or 32,250,000  plus all the other Arms @500/PY

Then add in field training, warstock and operational usage

 

[KevinB]

Ah I see you fixed your numbers 

FWIW - on a course in TN while I was back CONUS I fired over 5k in ONE week.  I try to shoot a min of 30-40K a year - balanced between CQB and KD stuff.


IMHO 5k/PY is a very low ball number to stay proficient.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Well since I can't write the CDS or CLS and the CO can't get those kinds of rounds even if he wanted to who do suggest I write?

 

[KevinB]

Dude -- I tried...

BGen Grant basically told use when he was the Bde Comd that he saw no value added in more musketry training.  :blotto:

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Well I'll pick up the gauntlet.  I'll be in touch for specifics (keep in mind laymen terms).

 

[Kirkhill]

Infidel, what's the going rate for 1000 rounds of 5.56mm Ball when bought in contractor quantities?

 

[KevinB]

Depends -- We get our ammo from DoS for work (no cost to us)

In Fla. I pay about $ 160/1k (USD) from a buddy at a Gunshop. 

IIRC his cost is about $140'ish  -- I know you could find it pre 9'11 for about $100/thou.

Some of the current staff officers could offer an idea what the CF pays (unit budget - but IIRC it was close to .80/rd and over a dollar for bandoliered ammo)

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

An ammo tech told me that is was about $0.30 a round of 5.56 ball.  I'll have to confirm that though.

 

[Kirkhill]

Do I read you right Infidel?

Market price $0.10 to $0.16 per round.
CF Staff price $0.80 to $1.00 per round?

Even at Quagmire's $0.30 per round there seems to be an interesting "handling charge" somewhere in the system.

 

[KevinB]

Kirkhill - that is the price I was quoted while running the unit rifle team -- if it is accurate or not I know not...

Worse case market may be .25 USD (M855 new Lake City production) - which seems ridiculous that the CF would pay more than retail

 

[Enzo]

What I'm getting out of this is that I can expect to continue augmenting my marksmanship skills on the weekends at the civi range then eh? Essentially subsidized training as I'll be paying for my bulk ammunition with my CF paycheque. My life's worth that to me, so I'll have fun with it.

Before I went abroad for some training last time I went to my local range and put 2K through my Norinco NP-34 (Sig P228 clone, I know I6, I'm helping China's GDP, but as I don't have a prohib licence, this was the only way I could aquire a P228, sucks eh) and 2K+ through my Olympic Arms carbine. My out of pocket costs were worth it as I was more than sufficient to the tasks at hand due to the time I spent at the range.

IIRC, worked out to something like $0.25/5.56mm & $0.20/9mm rd. I'm not 100% as this was last year and my memory isn't what it once was.

Just random thoughts, we're all on the same page here. Infantryman's primary tool is his rifle, so...

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Not just the Infantry but all arms.

 

[Kirkhill]

Infidel - any chance that this:

The CF actually pays extra money to IVI to keep it open (well SNC as IIRC they own IVI now).  The draw is so low that is uneconomical for SNC to operate it.

is related to this?

Market price $0.10 to $0.16 per round.
CF Staff price $0.80 to $1.00 per round?

Even at Quagmire's $0.30 per round there seems to be an interesting "handling charge" somewhere in the system.

SNC would be SNC-Lavalin would it not?

Given the range in prices quoted, your 40,000,000 rounds would cost anything from $4,000,000 pre 9/11 to $40,000,000 in SNC bandoliers.  Quite a spread.

PS $40,000,000 is 1/300th of a $12,000,000,000 budget or 0.33%.  $4,000,000 is 1/3000th of a $12,000,000,000 budget or 0.033%

 

[KevinB]

Could be--- related

SNC- yup

I know that IVI has been operating at a Loss - and somewhat like how Diemaco was operating the CF was basically giving it money to stay open

 

[couchcommander]

I'm sorry, I'm really confused. Dumb question time.

Lets say we go with Infidel's numbers, 5000 rounds. If my math is correct (which it may not be), even 30,000 people x 5000 rounds = 150,000,000 rounds per year.

At Kev's rate for purchase, being $150/1000, or $.15... that's still only 22 and a half million dollars worth of ammo... even if go for a rather expensive $250/1000 that's only 38 million dollars. Add an extra 20 million for distribution and shipping costs, running a huge bureaucracy for what should be something fairly simple, permits, etc. Still only about 60 million.

Thus I suppose in the end my question becomes, WTF is the Army balking about 60 million dollars worth of ammo when, last I checked, being able to actually hit the enemy is a vital component of any hostile engagement? How much did they blow on that useless satelite system again?

And I really don't think it would be that hard to distribute (though i can't say I have a lot of experience with ammo... I have been sending electronics all over the western half of the country though). I mean even if you used half pallets, at a minimum, you are looking at what, 50,000 rounds you can put on one half pallet? That means you'd only need to move like 3000 pallets of ammo extra, if you're packing it REALLY lightly. I have four monkeys in a very small warehouse that move that volume of product with little to no problems (in fact if we just had to send it out, it would makes things much easier - we have shit going back and forth and in and out, etc.)

Actually, better idea. If there are any NDHQ people looking on, PM me, and I'm sure we can work something out where I can supply training only ammo for the CF. I'll even get it wherever you want it in the main 10 provinces, whenever you need it. You won't need to worry about distribution, there will be a 1-800 number the various ranges can call a week before they need it, and it'll just show up.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Spell out acronyms please.

 

[Kirkhill]

couchcommander: we are in the same place.  Confused.

As far as distribution is concerned, it would seem that the average unit Trg Offr might be better off calling up Infidel's or Enzo's gun shop and having them DHL rounds to them.  Might even be able to get a pizza delivered at the same time.

Alternatively - make arrangements with the local shooting range for CF members to be given memberships and try and "acquire" rounds and range time on "the economy".

 

[Kirkhill]

Because ammunition purchases aren't as much fun to brag about at parties when you're trying to get laid 

LOL.

Here's another dumb question?  Given the use of optical sights on small arms these days it would seem that the sight picture of the rifleman is starting to look a lot like the sight picture of other more complex weapons systems.  Any reason to believe that a well trained rifleman, trained on $0.25 rounds to hit targets while under stress, might be more likely to hit a tank with a $100,000 round when under stress?