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AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

Colin Parkinson

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I was under the impression no one transfers larger missiles at sea. The USN doesn't load SM into VLS. I have seen pics of RAM being loaded.
The USN did experiment with a ship to ship missile reload, although I think it took place in a sheltered harbour at anchor.
 

Swampbuggy

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Just thinking out loud here, but I always thought AST would make a great centrepiece for a Caribbean task force, for either HADR with AOPS supporting or a mothership for OP CARIBBE. She could carry a couple of LEDETS, intercept boats, two choppers and be able to refuel USCG vessels, but not really be in harms way, like a JSS is meant to be able to handle.
 

MTShaw

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I was under the impression no one transfers larger missiles at sea. The USN doesn't load SM into VLS. I have seen pics of RAM being loaded.
I was thinking moving Canadian stores to Europe. They gave up on loading vls a while back.
 

MTShaw

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Just thinking out loud here, but I always thought AST would make a great centrepiece for a Caribbean task force, for either HADR with AOPS supporting or a mothership for OP CARIBBE. She could carry a couple of LEDETS, intercept boats, two choppers and be able to refuel USCG vessels, but not really be in harms way, like a JSS is meant to be able to handle.
As was discussed a while up, Canadian doctrine apparently doesn’t have a full AOR for HADR let alone for RAS chasing drug smugglers when every ship is very much close enough to land to RAS itself.
 

Swampbuggy

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As was discussed a while up, Canadian doctrine apparently doesn’t have a full AOR for HADR let alone for RAS chasing drug smugglers when every ship is very much close enough to land to RAS itself.
Of course, things could change (as unlikely as that may be) if someone decides the goodwill garnered from that sort of tasking is worth the cost. Point taken re:RAS, however the other benefits remain given the space/flexibility of the ship.

I don’t believe any of this is likely, as I’m certain ASTERIX will be pretty played out by the time JSS number two gets commissioned.
 

Swampbuggy

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Of course, things could change (as unlikely as that may be) if someone decides the goodwill garnered from that sort of tasking is worth the cost. Point taken re:RAS, however the other benefits remain given the space/flexibility of the ship.

I don’t believe any of this is likely, as I’m certain ASTERIX will be pretty played out by the time JSS number two gets commissioned.
I should also say that I don’t believe any of this would happen for multiple other reasons as well…cost, personnel, political will etc..
 

Colin Parkinson

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Of course, things could change (as unlikely as that may be) if someone decides the goodwill garnered from that sort of tasking is worth the cost. Point taken re:RAS, however the other benefits remain given the space/flexibility of the ship.

I don’t believe any of this is likely, as I’m certain ASTERIX will be pretty played out by the time JSS number two gets commissioned.
When has "Played out" ever stopped us?
 

Rainbow1910

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Man some people really dislike Davies and Asterix eh ?

Can we not just appreciate that we still have underway refueling and resupply capability until JSS comes online. Asterix has done oodles of sea days and has given yeoman service on both coasts. Is she perfect ? Nope, but she is worlds better than no tanker. Also wasn't this project delivered on time and on budget ?
I think we should have bought Asterix and Oblix for use as pure refulers and continued to use them in an quasi RFA role to augment JSS.

I am a tankerman, I have never seen missiles transferred at sea, I have seen a helo transferred at sea; in fact PRE rarely carried more ammunition than she needed for he own tasks. I cant remember a time her ammunition holds were packed. Maybe Op Apollo, but that was a lifetime ago.
From what I have gathered from more "amateur" public discussion pages about the RCN, Davie and Asterix very much have a strange cult following that has seemingly sprung up around them. Davie had a very positive public spin by apparently putting Asterix through her conversion on budget and on schedule, people seemingly elevated them atop some pedestal as being the shining example of Canadian shipbuilders. The near constant fanboying that many people do to Davie, Asterix and her potential sister seem to rub a lot of people the wrong way. Especially when it seems that Asterix is raking in a pretty penny for a relatively austere capability provided to the RCN, it comes off as a bit shallow for people to assume Davie is some master shipbuilder with the best interests of the nations defense in mind. They are just another domestic shipbuilder, one that has seemingly been skating around on a lot of public goodwill compared to Seaspan and Irving (especially Irving who many seem to treat as the shipbuilders equivalent of the anti-Christ). In my own personal opinion, Asterix fills a temporary niche for the RCN until JSS but the overall lease cost and capability provided does not seem sustainable long term.
 

Colin Parkinson

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The price for Asterix will come down greatly when it's not the only game in town. She will need a good refit once the first JSS is service. My guess is Davie and Fleet Services will see the writing on the wall and want to unload her at that point. I suspect the Government will offer to retain her and the contract at a reduced price, then when JSS #2 comes along, they either run out the contract or negotiate to buy her outright. Davie will be in a tight spot then as the ship will need work and the market for used AOR's is not large. Canada really needs 4 AOR's, but 3 would do. Asterix could be the relief AOR, shuttling between coasts as needed.
 

Halifax Tar

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From what I have gathered from more "amateur" public discussion pages about the RCN, Davie and Asterix very much have a strange cult following that has seemingly sprung up around them. Davie had a very positive public spin by apparently putting Asterix through her conversion on budget and on schedule, people seemingly elevated them atop some pedestal as being the shining example of Canadian shipbuilders. The near constant fanboying that many people do to Davie, Asterix and her potential sister seem to rub a lot of people the wrong way. Especially when it seems that Asterix is raking in a pretty penny for a relatively austere capability provided to the RCN, it comes off as a bit shallow for people to assume Davie is some master shipbuilder with the best interests of the nations defense in mind. They are just another domestic shipbuilder, one that has seemingly been skating around on a lot of public goodwill compared to Seaspan and Irving (especially Irving who many seem to treat as the shipbuilders equivalent of the anti-Christ). In my own personal opinion, Asterix fills a temporary niche for the RCN until JSS but the overall lease cost and capability provided does not seem sustainable long term.

Davie played a really good publicity and social media game, no doubt about that. And they delivered a product, on time and on budget. Asterix has been a busy bee since she came into service; personally I have RAS'd material and fuel from her on various occasions. Yup she cant go into harms way, the reality is she shouldn't be going into harms way.

Is the whole leasing idea costing more in the long run, maybe... probably... but they did offer to sell to us and WE made the decision to lease. We also way under budgeted how much we would use her. We should have bought both Asterix and Obilix. They would have been a great compliment to the JSS when they come online.

The other issue is, on the east coast, if there is such a history of Irving producing piss poor work, poor quality control, some on this forum have used to the word sabotage, and down right theft that it will take generations of stellar products coming out of that yard to take the bad taste out of most people mouths.

I am happy to see we have refueling capability, I am happy we have some sailors that get to go to sea or deploy in outstanding conditions. I wish I would have had the chance to sail in her.

I've never sailed west coast and therefore wont talk about Seaspan.
 
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NavyShooter

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If you want specific examples of willful deliberate sabotage, let me know.

If you want specific examples of outright thievery, let me know.

If you want specific examples of incompetence, let me know.

Suffice to say, there are reasons that unoccupied mess decks are padlocked during refits...catching folks sleeping in bunks while 'on the job' has happened...

The ships are stripped of all firefighting hoses and equipment...someone was cutting the brass hose connectors off...and using our fire extinguishers for their fire picket people...

Deliberately plugging a black water suction line on not one but two ships in succession...involving cutting a line, hammering it full of welding rod (or threaded rod on the other ship) and then welding the line back up and PAINTING IT...

Cut fiber optic cables...with tool marks...that are then tucked back into wireways...

Yeah...there's some significant lack of trust of certain ship yards that is well earned.
 

MTShaw

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I must add that a person in the know upward in the forum said that the yearly cost to RCN is $700M. That would give it a 30 year of 21B. Another reason HMCG doesn’t like Davie: Federal Fleet price fixing.
 

Swampbuggy

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I must add that a person in the know upward in the forum said that the yearly cost to RCN is $700M. That would give it a 30 year of 21B. Another reason HMCG doesn’t like Davie: Federal Fleet price fixing.
According to a 2018 article by Matthew Fisher in the CGAI publication, the cost for the initial 5 years lease (including personnel) was to be $677 million. I can’t find it now, but I believe the extension costs per each additional 5 years were progressively cheaper than that. So, if that is true, a 30 year service life should be less than $4 billion. I’ll try to attach the article I’m referencing, but I’m not up to speed on my new iPhone yet.
 

Colin Parkinson

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That works out to $15,456 an hr. A small tug is $500 an hour. Civilian Crew costs for the Astreix is likley in the $2,000 (36x $40+) an hour range? Does DND pay for the fuel she burns or is Federal Fleet Services responsible for it?

edited to account for Swamp buggy's information
 

Navy_Pete

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Davie isn't terrible, but they way oversell what they actually delivered with Asterix (which was a conversion, not a build, and all the construction for that happened over seas).

Their constant sniping at the NSS directly slows down everything, and some BGHs bought their slick BS. They are going to have the exact same growing pains as ISI and VSY when they start doing thing under the NSS rules with a couple of years to get up and running, and a few build cycles to get half competent, so looking forward to them getting a bit of humble pie when their actual construction projects run late and over budget.

Lot of moving pieces involved in building a ship, so takes a lot of skill, experience and coordination that they won't have until they've actually done it a few times, and they also need to do some infrastructure upgrades.

The reality is they aren't in NSS from the get go because they had the weakest proposal, so wish they would just quit lying and stirring the pot.
 

Dana381

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That works out to $15,456 an hr. A small tug is $500 an hour. Civilian Crew costs for the Astreix is likley in the $2,000 (36x $40+) an hour range? Does DND pay for the fuel she burns or is Federal Fleet Services responsible for it?

edited to account for Swamp buggy's information

If a person makes $40/hr it costs the employer appx $60/hr depending on insurance costs and benefit packages.
 

MTShaw

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That works out to $15,456 an hr. A small tug is $500 an hour. Civilian Crew costs for the Astreix is likley in the $2,000 (36x $40+) an hour range? Does DND pay for the fuel she burns or is Federal Fleet Services responsible for it?

edited to account for Swamp buggy's information
Actually employment costs at $40 earned can, depend go from &60 to $80. Also $40 per hour would be a very low wage. So average $60x1.5x2000x36 for federal fleet. PLus Canadian Navy, plus fuel
(she was docked at Esquimalt so I guess full FMFC) and it will be sent in for dep maintenance in a few years. The navy will pay for it. Plus the rental fees paid to Davie.

And Davie will make money hand over fist thanks to their “rental.”

Davie took advantage of the French card and it make me sick. It’s telling that the RCN likely can’t wait to get this anchor off of their necks.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Actually employment costs at $40 earned can, depend go from &60 to $80. Also $40 per hour would be a very low wage. So average $60x1.5x2000x36 for federal fleet. PLus Canadian Navy, plus fuel
(she was docked at Esquimalt so I guess full FMFC) and it will be sent in for dep maintenance in a few years. The navy will pay for it. Plus the rental fees paid to Davie.

And Davie will make money hand over fist thanks to their “rental.”

Davie took advantage of the French card and it make me sick. It’s telling that the RCN likely can’t wait to get this anchor off of their necks.
Captain will make considerable more, but stewards less, I did add a fudge factor, but perhaps not enough.
 
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