AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Halifax Tar]

But if you crew 2 out of three support ships with civilian crews now were talking. A Navy Reservist can work and get trained by the Military, then contract as a Sailor to the fleet. It is a win win for everyone........

Do that for all of them.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I suspect the Mistrals and the JSS would have less manning difficulties as the ships have better accommodations and facilities than the Frigates. Plus the "new ship smell". It's really to bad we didn't get the two Russian contract Mistrals as that's when the Tribals went offline and the base crew of a Mistral is 160 and the Tribals were 280, so we had the crew capacity then. Plus those ships were ice strengthened.

 

[Navy_Pete]

But if you crew 2 out of three support ships with civilian crews now were talking. A Navy Reservist can work and get trained by the Military, then contract as a Sailor to the fleet. It is a win win for everyone........

I agree that's a great setup for an oiler, and we already have civilians on all the auxiliaries.

Unfortunately our training doesn't give anyone the relevant certifications that a civilian would have, so if you are hiring civilians better to require them to have the relevant civvie tickets. That's actually much more practical to surge anyway, as we don't have training capacity either.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I suspect the Mistrals and the JSS would have less manning difficulties as the ships have better accommodations and facilities than the Frigates. Plus the "new ship smell". It's really to bad we didn't get the two Russian contract Mistrals as that's when the Tribals went offline and the base crew of a Mistral is 160 and the Tribals were 280, so we had the crew capacity then. Plus those ships were ice strengthened.

If they are military crewed, accommodations and facilities matter a lot less compared to how many people we have to spread around. Likely would help retention though and make for a happier crew(until we post someone back to an older class), but there have always been sailors that have stuck with a particular class because they liked it (and also the retraining for some trades is huge).

 

[Navy_Pete]

Wrong thread, take it outside.

Not really, we already don't have enough people for the existing fleet, and still bleeding faster than we can recruit. Unless we tie up some more ships we won't have people for the 2 JSSs that are coming (or AOPs 4,5 and 6), let alone 4-5 JSSs + Mistrals. Any 'nice to have' lists that ignore the people aspect are pointless.

The Navy is equipment centric, but ships without crews are just expensive floating bits of metal. Similarly, ships without adequate crews (with composition and experience) to do maintenance, respond to battle damage scenarios, and all the other things that you can do if you want to actually use the equipment effectively are a really expensive specialty tool being used as a hammer.

 

[MTShaw]

But if you crew 2 out of three support ships with civilian crews now were talking. A Navy Reservist can work and get trained by the Military, then contract as a Sailor to the fleet. It is a win win for everyone........

Are we going to lease people from Davie, or simply employ them? Are there insurance issues? AORs are far less useful if they can’t be anywhere where it can be seriously fired at. Also it would cost more than naval personal.

I’ve always wondered why we don’t pay the navy more than the going rate for merchant marine.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Are we going to lease people from Davie, or simply employ them? Are there insurance issues? AORs are far less useful if they can’t be anywhere where it can be seriously fired at. Also it would cost more than naval personal.

I’ve always wondered why we don’t pay the navy more than the going rate for merchant marine.

I think is he talking about using CFAV crewing methods.

 

[Stoker]

Are we going to lease people from Davie, or simply employ them? Are there insurance issues? AORs are far less useful if they can’t be anywhere where it can be seriously fired at. Also it would cost more than naval personal.

I’ve always wondered why we don’t pay the navy more than the going rate for merchant marine.

I was never comfortable with the Federal Fleet crewing model where the sailing Master can shut down operations if they feel it is dangerous for their workers. If we were in a time of war where the normal operational cycle was thrown out the window and we had to take on risk that may interfere with our operations. If we did retain Asterix or built extra civilian tankers then I would advocate for something other than the Federal Fleet crewing model.

 

[Stoker]

And then park them all because we have enough crew for 2 MCDVs and a tug boat after PAYCUTFORGEN.

Interesting we had a town hall today where the Fleet Commander said that while the implementation was a mess it helped personnel. That being said its not lost on the leadership people were negatively affected and they have asked for changes and the possibility that some many not lose their PLD in July as advertised. At least the door is open possibly for some positive change.

 

[childs56]

I was never comfortable with the Federal Fleet crewing model where the sailing Master can shut down operations if they feel it is dangerous for their workers. If we were in a time of war where the normal operational cycle was thrown out the window and we had to take on risk that may interfere with our operations. If we did retain Asterix or built extra civilian tankers then I would advocate for something other than the Federal Fleet crewing model.

During time of war does the Federal Fleet not work under different rules, they may be more risk to be taken then peacetime.

Are we going to lease people from Davie, or simply employ them?

What ever agreement we have currently with Davie and or staffing our tug boats.

Are there insurance issues?

There are always insurance issues but its the government they can figure it out.

AORs are far less useful if they can’t be anywhere where it can be seriously fired at. Also it would cost more than naval personal.

The US Navy crews their fleet Oilers with civie Crews, how close do they get to the fight? Cost wise more then likely equals out.

I’ve always wondered why we don’t pay the navy more than the going rate for merchant marine.

The same reason we don't pay Pilots the going rate, or Aircraft Techs, or Linesmen and on and on. The Gov needs to justify their expenses within their budget. They are not a money maker they are a money user.

 

[Dana381]

The Asterix crewing model seems like it works well for peace time. Sailors can feel they are serving their country without the negatives of signing up to the armed forces. They can quit anytime and go to work for someone else they don't have to go through basic training. And they know they will generally stay away from violence.

If we went to world war again the some merchant mariners crewing the oilers would see it as a duty to serve. The ones that wanted to bug out could but I'm sure replacements could be found.

If Canada keeps one JSS and one merchant oiler on each coast they can utilize them in such a way that works for both crews. Plus the GOC can brag about how they are creating good paying civilian jobs.

I know the Asterix can't go north of 60 but she seems to be quite busy now despite that limitation. Any time she has nothing to do she can always help the yanks out as they seem to be quite short of oilers at the moment. It might help Canada redeem some of the bad vibes Trudeau has created.

If I was federal fleet and the GOC didn't renew her contract I would do whatever I could to sell her services to the US or other allied navy's. (Yes I know there are legal issues about that but they can be sorted out)

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Take lessons learned from Fleet service, look at the RFA, adapt the two into a robust RCFA and also incorporate all the marine schools across the country by giving their students slots onboard to further their training and to help people get higher tickets. Other government agencies can sponsor slots as well, such as for indigenous mariners. This will help the RCN, the Merchant Marine and help develop a new generation of vessel masters and Ships Pilots. Which in turns helps Canada economically.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Interesting we had a town hall today where the Fleet Commander said that while the implementation was a mess it helped personnel. That being said its not lost on the leadership people were negatively affected and they have asked for changes and the possibility that some many not lose their PLD in July as advertised. At least the door is open possibly for some positive change.

In what metric did it help people?

The concurrent pay adjustment will help mask it, but there will definitely be people taking home less in very real terms.

Given that it took 15 years to implement any change, I really wouldn't hold my breath for any change, unless there is a front page story about a spouse with kids on a food bank or similar in July. Basically that would have needed to go to TBS last fall.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Interesting we had a town hall today where the Fleet Commander said that while the implementation was a mess it helped personnel. That being said its not lost on the leadership people were negatively affected and they have asked for changes and the possibility that some many not lose their PLD in July as advertised. At least the door is open possibly for some positive change.

Ive heard the same thing.

 

[OceanBonfire]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1663734033543512066

 

[MTShaw]

Obviously wrong forum. Sorry.

 

[OceanBonfire]

𝗡𝗶𝗗𝗔𝗥 𝗖𝗼𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗖𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗿𝗼𝗹 (𝗖𝟮) 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗖𝗼𝘂𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗿 𝗨𝗻𝗰𝗿𝗲𝘄𝗲𝗱 𝗔𝗲𝗿𝗶𝗮𝗹 𝗦𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺 (𝗖𝗨𝗔𝗦) 𝘀𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺 𝗮𝗰𝗾𝘂𝗶𝗿𝗲𝗱 𝗯𝘆 𝗙𝗲𝗱𝗲𝗿𝗮𝗹 𝗙𝗹𝗲𝗲𝘁 𝗦𝗲𝗿𝘃𝗶𝗰𝗲𝘀 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗶𝗻𝘀𝘁𝗮𝗹𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗼𝗻 𝗖𝗮𝗻𝗮𝗱𝗶𝗮𝗻 𝗖𝗼𝗺𝗯𝗮𝘁 𝗦𝘂𝗽𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁 𝗦𝗵𝗶𝗽 𝗔𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗶𝘅; 𝗠𝗔𝗥𝗦𝗦 𝗲𝘅𝗽𝗮𝗻𝗱𝘀 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗼 𝗖𝗮𝗻𝗮𝗱𝗮

https://twitter.com/x/status/1663526019087708161

NiDAR Command and Control (C2) and Counter Uncrewed Aerial System (CUAS) system acquired by Federal Fleet Services for installation on Canadian Combat Support Ship Asterix; MARSS expands into Canada

Federal Fleet Services acquires MARSS multidomain surveillance, C2 and CUAS system for Combat Support Ship Asterix which provides at-sea support services for...

www.newswire.ca

 

[Spencer100]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1663734033543512066

On a total meaningless note...the Asterix is better looking.

 

[MTShaw]

On a total meaningless note...the Asterix is better looking.

But JSS has more than one exit to those beautiful compartments. And slatted armour.

 

[suffolkowner]

Is The Royal Navy Still a 'Blue Water Navy'? No, it is not.

A blog about UK defence issues which tries to put a positive and fresh look at many current matters impacting UK and wider defence.

thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com

kinda a dark view of the RN as it stands. Needs more support ships.

If everyone needs more support ships why is no one building them? It cant really be because they are not sexy can it?