AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Sub_Guy]

Funny how I always end up looking at Australia and wondering to myself, why doesn't Canada adopt their procurement policy?

Another decade for the Protecteur Class is going to be very costly, but it would be even more costly without a tanker.

 

[jollyjacktar]

A couple of years ago the LCMM for the engineering side of the house was told to be prepared to keep sourcing parts until 2018.  We lost the head to a joy compressor some years ago.  The only replacement to be found was in a junk yard in Texas.  You are not kidding when you say that it will be expensive to keep these beasts in service.  I could say more, but I am sure it would get some heads all bothered.

He was also asked in his professional opinion what parts of the engineering plants on both vessles could be taken off and installed in the replacement ships.  He reply was that it was impossible as it was 50 year old technology and 40 + year old equipment.  He suggested that they not be so cheap and invest in modern power plants.

 

[FSTO]

A couple of years ago the LCMM for the engineering side of the house was told to be prepared to keep sourcing parts until 2018.  We lost the head to a joy compressor some years ago.  The only replacement to be found was in a junk yard in Texas.  You are not kidding when you say that it will be expensive to keep these beasts in service.  I could say more, but I am sure it would get some heads all bothered.

He was also asked in his professional opinion what parts of the engineering plants on both vessles could be taken off and installed in the replacement ships.  He reply was that it was impossible as it was 50 year old technology and 40 + year old equipment.  He suggested that they not be so cheap and invest in modern power plants.

That is just sad. Another example, PRO was broken down in San Diego and the only way she could get underway again was to find an old backyard mechanic who lived near the base who was able to fashion a part that he had not seen in 25 years.

When will the Navy and Government understand that fixing crap is not the way to work efficiently.

 

[jollyjacktar]

We broke down once in PR.  We had to get  a backyard mechanic there to fix us up that time too.  Cost us $15K.  Our last trip we broke down several times and had us sitting in Mayport for a week and Norfolk for a week, it cost a bundle this time too.  It made the papers back home.  This old girl is tired and if it was a horse they would put her out to pasture years ago or shoot her.

 

[geo]

FWIW, the new CDS has come out as saying that he intends to move ( which way ??? ) on Navy requirements.

IMHO, it'll be up to the Chief of Maritime staff to set his priorities and deliver a workable plan...

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

FWIW, the new CDS has come out as saying that he intends to move ( which way ??? ) on Navy requirements.

IMHO, it'll be up to the Chief of Maritime staff to set his priorities and deliver a workable plan...

Agreed as mentioned here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/77915.0.html

 

[FSTO]

For those of you with access to the DIN

http://maritime.mil.ca/english/cmssuite/jul/jul2008/21-25/RDIMS_151407.doc

In a nutshell, the CMS is listening to industry who has informed the Navy that they cannot have a JSS as currently envisioned at the price Canada is willing to pay. Therefore we are looking at the Royal Netherlands Navy Joint Logistic Support Ship and the Spanish Cantabria AOR as comparisons for ideas such as purchase the plans and build in Canada, design and build (in Canada) something very similar or buy off the shelf. This will enevitably delay the delivery of the AOR replacement, but in the long run we maybe taking a page from Australia and doing (we hope) the right thing.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Finally they are starting to listen. Its too bad its taken this long for DND to clue in. isn't the Cantabria class a variant of the Patino class?

 

[FSTO]

Finally they are starting to listen. Its too bad its taken this long for DND to clue in. isn't the Cantabria class a variant of the Patino class?

I think it is a larger version. I tried to find a picture of it (or a conceptional drawing) but so far have been unsuccessful.
As for the PATINO, we did a RAS with her during OP APOLLO and she is a nice little ship with lots of logic used in her design. I would not be disappointed if we used her as a template.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Navantia Launches Combat Replenishment Ship for the Spanish Navy

(Source: Navantia; dated July 21, web-posted July 22, 2008)
Navantia has celebrated on 21st. July, in the San Fernando- Puerto Real shipyard, the ceremony of christening of the combat replenishment ship “Cantabria” for the Spanish Navy.

This contract was signed in July 2005 and the keel was laid in July 2007. The commissioning of this ship to the Spanish Navy is scheduled 12-14 months after the launching.

This is a double hull ship, capable of supplying fluids (oil, water, fuels) and solids (goods, weapons, ammunition, supplies, etc.) to a group of combat for support of Army and Navy operations. It also has capacity for support on fighting against the sea pollution, and a high hospital capacity, and therefore can be used on humanitarian operations and ecological disasters.

Main characteristics:
-- Length overall: 173.9 meters
-- Length between at waterline: 162.0 m
-- Beam: 23.0 m
-- Design draught: 8.0 m
-- Depth: 11.8 m
-- Weight: 9,800 tonnes
-- Displacement: 19,500 t
-- Propulsion: 2 x 10.890 kW + 1 CPP
-- Maximum speed: 22 kts
-- Range: 6,000 nautical miles
-- Crew: 122 persons

Link to Navantia website for Cantabria and Patino

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Looks like they will then decomission the Fleet Oiler  "Marques de la Ensenada" and replace it with the Combat Replenishment Ship "Cantabria"

Just for comparison, Patino Characteristics:

Eslora total  166 m (total length)

Eslora entre perpendiculares  156 m (length between waterline)

Manga máxima  22 m (beam)

Puntal a cubierta principal  11,8 m (depth)

Desplazamiento de plena carga  17.000 t (displacement)

Velocidad máxima 20 n (max speed)

Autonomía a 20 nudos  13.500 mn (range 13500 nautical miles @ 20 kn)

Tripulación  180 p (crew)

Margen de futuro  150 t (can't find the correct english term.  :-[ )

 

[canuck101]

If they do build variants of the Spanish Cantabria AOR how many would they build, and would this leave them open to purchase a surplus LPD or LHD from the US.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I would hope they get a minimum of 3 AORs and 1 LPD. As long as the ship LPD/LHD was not over 10 years old otherwise you are going to have increased reliability issues

 

[gvg]

Latest artist impression of the Dutch JSS Karel Doorman, from (the usually well informed guys at) www.dutchfleet.net.
Not an LPD, since it doesn't have a well deck.

Around 25.000t displacement.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I think thats the wrong way to go. LPD has the best of both worlds, a flight deck and a well. having an LHA only type of ship will only limit the types versatility in our Navy.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

I think we'd be a lot better off with either a fourth AOR or a used ro-ro. A ro-ro could also be civilian-manned, the same as the Glen tugs.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Then we may run into the GTS Katie scenario all over again.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Has anyone stolen a Glen tug lately?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Thats not the point and you know it...you start putting civillian mariners under contract in harms way (and who says they will be sailors from the 1st world) they might refuse.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Thats not the point and you know it...you start putting civillian mariners under contract in harms way (and who says they will be sailors from the 1st world) they might refuse.

You do realize that we are transporting vehicles and materiel to and from theatre in precisely this manner today?