AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Baz]

For those thinking about the RFA model, have you looked at the state of the RFA lately? They are in the middle of a labour dispute which is quite nasty, and their crewing is abysmal. One of the brand new Tide class (Tiderace) and their only dry stores ship left (Fort Victoria, the others all gone and the new solid sorrows [oops, I meant stores, but sorrows is ironically appropriate] ships years out) are laid up due to lack of crew. Two Wave class (Wave Knight and Wave Ruler) are already gone for similar reasons.

This after making assurances up and down that Fort Vic would definitely be available for CSG25. Adding the lose of Albion and Bulwark (the bulk of their amphib fleet) has Navy Lookout logically asking whether the “Royal Navy is in terminal or temporary decline?”

Edited to add: which doesn’t mean it’s not a workable model, but maybe it needs deep pockets… which the RFA no longer has. We haven’t had deep pockets for a very long time.

 

[Underway]

Is it true they tried 3 times to break the launch bottle on Pro, on Friday the 13th?

If true that's a sign. The ship is going to be stubborn mule. And I can work with that.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

For those thinking about the RFA model, have you looked at the state of the RFA lately? They are in the middle of a labour dispute which is quite nasty, and their crewing is abysmal. One of the brand new Tide class (Tiderace) and their only dry stores ship left (Fort Victoria, the others all gone and the new solid sorrows [oops, I meant stores, but sorrows is ironically appropriate] ships years out) are laid up due to lack of crew. Two Wave class (Wave Knight and Wave Ruler) are already gone for similar reasons.

This after making assurances up and down that Fort Vic would definitely be available for CSG25. Adding the lose of Albion and Bulwark (the bulk of their amphib fleet) has Navy Lookout logically asking whether the “Royal Navy is in terminal or temporary decline?”

Edited to add: which doesn’t mean it’s not a workable model, but maybe it needs deep pockets… which the RFA no longer has. We haven’t had deep pockets for a very long time.

US Marine Sealift command is having problems as well. "What's going on in shipping" has a video on the issues. We could learn from all 3 and slowly build up that capability to supplement the crews we have on some ships.

 

[Halifax Tar]

For those thinking about the RFA model, have you looked at the state of the RFA lately? They are in the middle of a labour dispute which is quite nasty, and their crewing is abysmal. One of the brand new Tide class (Tiderace) and their only dry stores ship left (Fort Victoria, the others all gone and the new solid sorrows [oops, I meant stores, but sorrows is ironically appropriate] ships years out) are laid up due to lack of crew. Two Wave class (Wave Knight and Wave Ruler) are already gone for similar reasons.

This after making assurances up and down that Fort Vic would definitely be available for CSG25. Adding the lose of Albion and Bulwark (the bulk of their amphib fleet) has Navy Lookout logically asking whether the “Royal Navy is in terminal or temporary decline?”

Edited to add: which doesn’t mean it’s not a workable model, but maybe it needs deep pockets… which the RFA no longer has. We haven’t had deep pockets for a very long time.

All sea going organizations are having crewing problems. The answer is tried, tested and true. Press gangs.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

US Marine Sealift command is having problems as well. "What's going on in shipping" has a video on the issues. We could learn from all 3 and slowly build up that capability to supplement the crews we have on some ships.

US Merchant Marine is in terrible shape. They are also chronically short sailors, like RFA, and their ships are beginning to fall in to disrepair. There is plenty of commentary on it but not much action.

 

[Underway]

Is it true they tried 3 times to break the launch bottle on Pro, on Friday the 13th?

Told my son this story, his response...

"Ship was like 'why you wasting good champagne like that? No no, we can drink that'. "

 

[Underway]

For those thinking about the RFA model, have you looked at the state of the RFA lately? They are in the middle of a labour dispute which is quite nasty, and their crewing is abysmal. One of the brand new Tide class (Tiderace) and their only dry stores ship left (Fort Victoria, the others all gone and the new solid sorrows [oops, I meant stores, but sorrows is ironically appropriate] ships years out) are laid up due to lack of crew. Two Wave class (Wave Knight and Wave Ruler) are already gone for similar reasons.

This after making assurances up and down that Fort Vic would definitely be available for CSG25. Adding the lose of Albion and Bulwark (the bulk of their amphib fleet) has Navy Lookout logically asking whether the “Royal Navy is in terminal or temporary decline?”

Edited to add: which doesn’t mean it’s not a workable model, but maybe it needs deep pockets… which the RFA no longer has. We haven’t had deep pockets for a very long time.

This is why I'm against a dedicated LPD or LHD.

We need to get our logistics side correct and robust. The four pillars should be flexible role players (AOPs, mine warfare etc...), high end surface combatants, relevant submarine force, robust sustainment assets.

We are moving to that now. Once those pillars are in place you can then faff around with other roles.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

All sea going organizations are having crewing problems. The answer is tried, tested and true. Press gangs.

Otherwise known as "national service", or "selective service" or "conscription"

 

[suffolkowner]

For those thinking about the RFA model, have you looked at the state of the RFA lately? They are in the middle of a labour dispute which is quite nasty, and their crewing is abysmal. One of the brand new Tide class (Tiderace) and their only dry stores ship left (Fort Victoria, the others all gone and the new solid sorrows [oops, I meant stores, but sorrows is ironically appropriate] ships years out) are laid up due to lack of crew. Two Wave class (Wave Knight and Wave Ruler) are already gone for similar reasons.

This after making assurances up and down that Fort Vic would definitely be available for CSG25. Adding the lose of Albion and Bulwark (the bulk of their amphib fleet) has Navy Lookout logically asking whether the “Royal Navy is in terminal or temporary decline?”

Edited to add: which doesn’t mean it’s not a workable model, but maybe it needs deep pockets… which the RFA no longer has. We haven’t had deep pockets for a very long time.

Is the Royal Navy in a terminal or temporary decline? | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

seems like the carriers have eaten the RN and RFA's lunch as predicted?
Whats the point if you have no escorts or supply ships?

Is the RFA model supposed to be a cheaper one operationally and why?

 

[Halifax Tar]

This is why I'm against a dedicated LPD or LHD.

We need to get our logistics side correct and robust. The four pillars should be flexible role players (AOPs, mine warfare etc...), high end surface combatants, relevant submarine force, robust sustainment assets.

We are moving to that now. Once those pillars are in place you can then faff around with other roles.

The RCN has a lot of work to do in practical and culture terms to fix the Logistics side of the house. Just building a tanker is great. But until you fill it with the materials of sustainment is just an empty ship. That fixes your practical side, then you need to make the sustainment a priority and manage it, that's the culture side.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Is the RFA model supposed to be a cheaper one operationally and why?

It is supposed to be. The main reason being that you hired merchant mariners off the street. As such, you did not have to spend resources to train them as mariners - the civilian schools did that for you. Moreover, the manning system and equipment were different: the RFA's were built to merchant standards - not warship (for an explanation, see all the discussions in these fora about the difference between Asterix and the PROTECTEUR class) - and in the engineering side, for instance, an RFA with civilian crewing standard could get by with 5 to 7 engineers, where the RN would need over twenty. The same went for deck watches. Finally, as a merchant service, the RFA personnel did not get posted from time to time, with the associated costs. They were home ported where their vessel operated from, and they switched jobs or ship if and when they "applied" for another opening one on their own, like any other civil servant. Thus, you didn't have to "manage" their careers, with the overall cycle personnel management cost saving.


At least, that's the theory.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Who launches a ship on Friday the 13th?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Civilians.

The Navy actually has a taboo about even sailing out of harbour on such date if you were alongside to start with (at least, used to).

 

[Kirkhill]

So navies can't find sailors.
Auxiliaries can't find sailors.
Merchant fleets can't find sailors.

And yet we continue to have discussions about needing to build ships to house crews we can't hire or retain.

Meanwhile civil and military fleets are progressing with minimally and optionally manned vessels of all types.

Even Odysseus eventually tired of the sea and walked inland.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

But Neptune hasn't yet!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

So navies can't find sailors.
Auxiliaries can't find sailors.
Merchant fleets can't find sailors.

And yet we continue to have discussions about needing to build ships to house crews we can't hire or retain.

Meanwhile civil and military fleets are progressing with minimally and optionally manned vessels of all types.

Even Odysseus eventually tired of the sea and walked inland.

70,000 applicants, maybe we need to adjust our expectations for hiring?

 

[Kirkhill]

70,000 applicants, maybe we need to adjust our expectations for hiring?

And/or adjust the nature of the job offers?

 

[Underway]

Who launches a ship on Friday the 13th?

Ship hasn't been launched yet. Just the naming ceremony. Launch is 21st IIRC.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

So navies can't find sailors.
Auxiliaries can't find sailors.
Merchant fleets can't find sailors.

And yet we continue to have discussions about needing to build ships to house crews we can't hire or retain.

Meanwhile civil and military fleets are progressing with minimally and optionally manned vessels of all types.

Even Odysseus eventually tired of the sea and walked inland.

Actually, everyone in NATO who thought they could get away with small crews are now rethinking that position.

Apparently, in wars, you need lots of folks to do stuff.

 

[Underway]

70,000 applicants, maybe we need to adjust our expectations for hiring?

No 70'000 applications. People are just AI/automating their application processes, and many apply individually for multiple different trades not realizing that its the same application. I would look at how many test. Until they are through prospect management they aren't an applicant. They just made an application. A lot of those people don't even know they are applying to the military in a uniformed job.