AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Klinkaroo]

Like geo said a constant flow and steady work in the shipyards would also help retain people. When I finish my degree I will have to jump from contract to contract to get work (though there isn't a lack of it) but you can't get a job full time for a shipyard...

And the idea of building Hulls overseas is not a bad idea since you get rid of the problem of needing a big drydock so you can use a smaller shipyard to do the outfitting...

 

[geo]

If you look as the Aussies, they bought their AOR hull outa Korea & finished em off at home... to OZ tastes

 

[cobbler]

Yes, it'll be hard for all the Harper fanboys on these forums to brush this one aside. This was a major program that will affect the entire Navy's operational capabilities, and put sailors lives at risk, and just because it will cost too much.

you see the scrapping of plans to purchase some highly stupid ship designs as having a NEGATIVE impact on navy capability and RISKING sailors lives?

Other way around mate.

JSS was a god-awful idea. better to wait a few years and get some proper ships. Not rush in to get the multi-billion dollar brain fart of a bean counter.

 

[Kirkhill]

Oi, Cobbler,

Seeing as how we've got your attention,  what's the word on Sirius? Is she getting the job done?

 

[cobbler]

Oi, Cobbler,

Seeing as how we've got your attention,  what's the word on Sirius? Is she getting the job done?

Yeah from all I' ve heard shes going great. No problems onboard and no complaints from her receiver ships in RASs.

But she is just a tanker. She can take huge amounts of liquids and transfer them pretty bloody quickly. But she is very limited in replenishment of stores.
Unlike SUCCESS and I would imagine your two AORs which can transfer everything from food to Harpoon missiles.

For what she is, a quickly procured tanker to replace the capability of the aging WESTRALIA, shes damn near perfect. But the whole package? she aint.

Depends how desperate you guys are I suppose.

 

[geo]

well... not sure why we don't buy an "off the shelf" tanker to remove the urgency in procurment (we can always sell it off later) and build "tailor made" AORs (with or without help) once we get our act together ???

 

[FSTO]

well... not sure why we don't buy an "off the shelf" tanker to remove the urgency in procurment (we can always sell it off later) and build "tailor made" AORs (with or without help) once we get our act together ???

There are days that I dispair to think that we'll ever get our act together.

 

[Edward Campbell]

There are days that I dispair to think that we'll ever get our act together.

I have learned from this thread that a multi-role ship (à la the SMART ship proposed by MIL back in the late ‘80s or early ‘90s which was very popular in some circles in NDHQ waaaaay back when) can have too many roles to be ‘optimal’ for any of them.

So, and this is a serious question: what IS the 'right' (best? optimal? affordable? whatever?) answer?

And, since I’m asking questions: It appears to me that our overriding operational requirement is for a some  multi-role AORs (refuelling and replenishment), not for a tanker and a ‘supply’ ship and not for a too many roles JSS. Is that correct? If so, how many?

Should we, eventually (when here might be enough resources for an amphibious task force), look for a single role amphibious ships, LPDs, LPHs and the like? Is the UK’s HMS Ocean a useful ‘model’ for our (eventual) consideration?


(Small words, please, I'm an old soldier.)

 

[Kirkhill]

Yeah from all I' ve heard shes going great. No problems onboard and no complaints from her receiver ships in RASs.

But she is just a tanker. She can take huge amounts of liquids and transfer them pretty bloody quickly. But she is very limited in replenishment of stores.
Unlike SUCCESS and I would imagine your two AORs which can transfer everything from food to Harpoon missiles.

For what she is, a quickly procured tanker to replace the capability of the aging WESTRALIA, shes damn near perfect. But the whole package? she aint.

Depends how desperate you guys are I suppose.

Ta much.

Desperate might be a fair estimate from what I understand.

 

[ringo]

Buy offshore, why waste DND dollars to prop up Canadian shipyards they should be content with refit and outfitting work.
IMHO buy 2 Cantabria AOR's from Spain, HMCS Provider and HMCS Supply?
May be able to lease oiler Marques De La Ensenada from Spanish navy till new ships commission. 
Buy single JLOS type from the Netherlands, a ship of this type can fill in when an AOR is in refit and provide basic sealift, HMCS Vimy Ridge or HMCS Juno Beach?

2 AOR's and 1 JLOS would certainly be more flexable than 2 AOR's currently in service.

Finally I believe the Tribal's will pay off without replacement and surface fleet will be reduced to 12 Halifax frigates.

 

[GAP]

US Navy on the T-AKE As It Beefs Up Supply Ship Capacity (updated)
11-Sep-2008
Article Link

The entire T-AKE dry cargo/ ammunition ship program could have a total value of as much as $6.2 billion in exchange for 14 ships, as the US looks to modernize its supply ship fleet. Indeed, the House Armed Services Committee recently put together an FY 2008 budget that added $456 million for another T-AKE ship – though this figure would not cover all of the internal systems et. al. that must be added to make it operational.

How do T-AKE ships fit into US naval operations? What ships do they replace? What’s the tie-in to US civilian industrial capacity? How were environmental standards built into their design? And what contracts have been issued for T-AKE ships to date? DID has answers in this FOCUS Article. Recent updates include a minor contract for T-AKE 5 post-shakedown work…
More on link

 

[FSTO]

Buy offshore, why waste DND dollars to prop up Canadian shipyards they should be content with refit and outfitting work.
IMHO buy 2 Cantabria AOR's from Spain, HMCS Provider and HMS Supply?
May be able to lease oiler Marques De La Ensenada from Spanish navy till new ships commission. 
Buy single JLOS type from the Netherlands, a ship of this type can fill in when an AOR is in refit and provide basic sealift, HMS Vimy Ridge or HMS Juno Beach?
2 AOR's and 1 JLOS would certainly be more flexable than 2 AOR's currently in service.

Finally I believe the Tribal's will pay off without replacement and surface fleet will be reduced to 12 Halifax frigates.

I know that I am telling you to suck eggs but if they are Canadian Navy ships then its HMCS.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

So, and this is a serious question: what IS the 'right' (best? optimal? affordable? whatever?) answer?

That depends on what you mean by 'right'. Since the CF hasn't received a useful projection of what to expect from the government, that would be a pretty hard question to answer.

And, since I’m asking questions: It appears to me that our overriding operational requirement is for a some  multi-role AORs (refuelling and replenishment), not for a tanker and a ‘supply’ ship and not for a too many roles JSS. Is that correct? If so, how many?

The immediate naval operational role appears to be for an AOR, not a transport.

Generally you can get 30% availability out of a unit, so 3-4 ships sounds about right to keep one ship more or less available most of the time.

Should we, eventually (when here might be enough resources for an amphibious task force), look for a single role amphibious ships, LPDs, LPHs and the like? Is the UK’s HMS Ocean a useful ‘model’ for our (eventual) consideration?

That's looking pretty far into the future. Before looking at specific platforms, we'd need to know what the task force is supposed to do.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Thanks for that.

Now, my next question: personnel.

I understand, I think, that we can go for smaller crews (or require larger ones) by adopting different standards; but part of an AOR's crew consists of technical specialists, right?

How many sailors will we need to crew four AORs?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Ed, it varies across the spectrum:
Complements are approximates:
Patino class- 180
Berlin class- 240
Supply class -175 civillian; 60 military
Fort Victoria class- 285

All and all it will depend on how big they want our next gen AORs to be and what they want them to be able to do.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I have learned from this thread that a multi-role ship (à la the SMART ship proposed by MIL back in the late ‘80s or early ‘90s which was very popular in some circles in NDHQ waaaaay back when) can have too many roles to be ‘optimal’ for any of them.

So, and this is a serious question: what IS the 'right' (best? optimal? affordable? whatever?) answer?

And, since I’m asking questions: It appears to me that our overriding operational requirement is for a some  multi-role AORs (refuelling and replenishment), not for a tanker and a ‘supply’ ship and not for a too many roles JSS. Is that correct? If so, how many?

Should we, eventually (when here might be enough resources for an amphibious task force), look for a single role amphibious ships, LPDs, LPHs and the like? Is the UK’s HMS Ocean a useful ‘model’ for our (eventual) consideration?


(Small words, please, I'm an old soldier.)

From my perspective we need to work on the basics of sea power before we can get the cool toys the big boys play with. While it would be nice to have an LPD in the fleet, exploring the concept IMO has taken resources away from the replacement and refit of all of our ships.
1) Get the AORs
2) Refit the CPFs
3) Replace the 280s annd eventually the Halifax class with a common hull with common systems
4) Get the Victorias back in the water and look for a replacement sooner rather then later.
5) maintain some sort of cadre minewarfare capability
6) develop an Arctic patrol and support capability.
then and only then should we look at an LPD.

Personally before an LPD, I would rather see in the fleet, ships like diving support tenders, salvage and repair ships and even a hospital ship.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

I agree.

Hospital ships maybe at the same time as an LPD. Unfortunately, you tend to need them at the same time.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I agree.

Hospital ships maybe at the same time as an LPD. Unfortunately, you tend to need them at the same time.

I think the peacekeeper loving Canadian public would really support the idea of a Canadian manned and crewed hospital ship. May be able to use it as a DART support platform as well....

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Yes, I suppose that would be popular. Are there enough doctors and nurses in the CF to crew it?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Yes, I suppose that would be popular. Are there enough doctors and nurses in the CF to crew it?

thats the question...but the again we have sent teams to the Mercy and the Comfort. i am sure some sort of agreement with the US could be worked out as well. considering the way the weather has been in the US south, I would suspect a lot of operations down there.