AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Oh very drole!

Actually: It is "sailor" that is out of date. In proper English parlance, it refers to a crew that operates a Sail ship. We have not had one of those for a while (Oriole excluded, of course).

In more modern English, "sailor" is used to refer to the actual crew of a ship only, whereby "seaman" refers to all the serving members of a country's naval forces, more particularly those below the rank of petty officer. Source: The Canadian Oxford Dictionnary.

As for the "seaman - seawoman" debate (and the confusing reason DND invented the use of "sailor" in public relation to avoid living with this decision) we settled it in the late seventies: Until then, women were reffered to as "wrens" and I can tell you that many of them, my wife included, have never accepted being deprived of the historical connection to the great achievements of this corpus. So, until then we had Ordinary Wren, Able Wren, Leading Wren, Master Wren and then the usual ranks. Suddenly, someone decided that it was sexist and we all had to use seaman but, when required (as for accommodation purposes) you would indicate one's sex with a (W). It was stupid, the old system was not broken, but they are now trying to cover up the reference to "man" by resuscitating the archaic term "sailor".


Interestingly enough, for once the problem does not arise in French, where both "marin" and "matelot" can be used indiscriminately in the masculine or feminine.

 

[Infanteer]

In any event, Infanteer, the answer to your question is two fold: First no, for the "sailor", because our navy has no sailors - we have "seamen"

Whatever - legally we don't have a Navy either, so who cares.

as to the support for the concept, as this one is presented above, I am sure we have all the support in the world. The reason is simple: do not be fooled by the politicians rhetoric that this is still the same "Joint Support Ship" concept they pitched earlier. It is not.

That's what I was looking for - thanks.

 

[jollyjacktar]

OGBD, I think of myself as a "Shipwright" or "Sailor" not a "Seaman".  Whether correct or otherwise, sorry Mate.

Infanteer, as I am on the whole a "Tanker Wanker" (having spent pretty well all my sea time on the AOR) I do wholeheartedly  support a replacement for the old girls.  They are long past their prime and should have been replaced well before they were first promised in my briefings of 99/00.  And in those days we were told there would be 4 in the water for 05.  So, having be led down this path several times before, I will believe it when I see one sail into the Dockyard and not before.

 

[Infanteer]

Infanteer, as I am on the whole a "Tanker Wanker" (having spent pretty well all my sea time on the AOR) I do wholeheartedly  support a replacement for the old girls.  They are long past their prime and should have been replaced well before they were first promised in my briefings of 99/00.  And in those days we were told there would be 4 in the water for 05.  So, having be led down this path several times before, I will believe it when I see one sail into the Dockyard and not before.

I whole-heartedly support AOR replacement; I'd put it on my top 3 of things-to-do for the Forces.  The concept I was reffering to was the all-singing-all-dancing JSS that was discussed above and appears truncated.  To me, it sounds like the JSS was from the people who brought us great things like the MMEV....

 

[vonGarvin]

To me, it sounds like the JSS was from the people who brought us great things like the MMEV....

and the MGS, and the CASW, and the....

 

[jollyjacktar]

I whole-heartedly support AOR replacement; I'd put it on my top 3 of things-to-do for the Forces.  The concept I was reffering to was the all-singing-all-dancing JSS that was discussed above and appears truncated.  To me, it sounds like the JSS was from the people who brought us great things like the MMEV....

I thought it was attempting to be all things to all people and came from the Penny Pinchers want to do more with less and cheap out on reality.  But honestly, I would have done song and dances to see damn near anything new come down the pipe 10 years ago when I was first promised the ALSE concept prior to the JSS.  Of course being a greedy bugger I also wanted to see the Amphibs be brought to life too.  A chance to crew a ship like the USS Gunston Hall would have been fantastic.

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

Well when I was in the Navy, Seamen was not nearly as used as Sailor. You know how the Army says one soldier one kit, well the Navy pers would say one Sailor one kit. Seaman at least in the units ive served in, was used for only MS and below.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

In more modern English, "sailor" is used to refer to the actual crew of a ship only, whereby "seaman" refers to all the serving members of a country's naval forces, more particularly those below the rank of petty officer. Source: The Canadian Oxford Dictionnary.

You’re making a distinction that doesn’t exist.  My trusty Random House Dictionary defines ‘sailor’ thusly:
1. a person whose occupation is sailing or navigation; mariner.
2. a seaman below the rank of officer.
3. a naval enlistee.
4. a person adept at sailing, esp. with reference to freedom from seasickness: He was such a bad sailor that he always traveled to Europe by plane.
5. a flat-brimmed straw hat with a low, flat crown.

—Synonyms
Seafarer, sailor, mariner, salt, seaman, tar are terms for a person who leads a seafaring life. A sailor or seaman is one whose occupation is on board a ship at sea, esp. a member of a ship's crew below the rank of petty officer: a sailor before the mast; an able-bodied seaman. Mariner is a term now found only in certain technical expressions: master mariner (captain in merchant service); mariner's compass  (ordinary compass as used on ships); formerly used much as “sailor” or “seafaring man,” now the word seems elevated or quaint: Rime of the Ancient Mariner. Salt and tar are informal terms for old and experienced sailors: an old salt; a jolly tar.

and seaman:

1. a person skilled in seamanship.
2. a person whose trade or occupation is assisting in the handling, sailing, and navigating of a ship during a voyage, esp. one below the rank of officer; sailor.
3. U.S. Navy and Coast Guard. An enlisted person ranking below petty officer.

Looks like pretty much the same thing to me.  FWIW, I consider myself to be a sailor (a person whose occupation is sailing or navigation; mariner).

As for the "seaman - seawoman" debate (and the confusing reason DND invented the use of "sailor" in public relation to avoid living with this decision) we settled it in the late seventies: Until then, women were reffered to as "wrens" and I can tell you that many of them, my wife included, have never accepted being deprived of the historical connection to the great achievements of this corpus. So, until then we had Ordinary Wren, Able Wren, Leading Wren, Master Wren and then the usual ranks. Suddenly, someone decided that it was sexist and we all had to use seaman but, when required (as for accommodation purposes) you would indicate one's sex with a (W). It was stupid, the old system was not broken, but they are now trying to cover up the reference to "man" by resuscitating the archaic term "sailor".

That (w) thing hasn’t been used in the 18+ years that I’ve been in the navy and I’ve certainly never heard a female sailor express a desire to be called WREN.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Not having a Navy is fine Infanteer, since legally, we do not have an Army either .

Now Jollyjacktar: Of your post I will only say this:

"Shipwright" is to "hull tech" as "sailor" is to "seaman" (after all, when was the last time you fixed a wooden hull?).

One is just the old term for the other one. All trades evolve like that: When I joined, we still had "radar plotters" and "fire controlman", but these terms were modernized when it became clear that their duties exceeded by far what the older name implied. However, when the transition was taking place from late 19th century to first third of the 20th century, calling a seaman a sailor was considered a very serious personnal insult as it meant that the person was not smart enough to acquire the skills required by the new steam technology.

Oh! and Lex Parsimonia, in Canada we use the Queen's English (or at least our own version of it, which is why I used the Canadian Oxford Dictionnary). I just note that the US dictionnary you use show our southern cousins having the concepts reversed, as usual .

I think we should leave it at this and go back on topic.

P.s.: While I appreciate the use of proper terminology, I only seek to educate hopefully in a lighthearted way, not berate, and thus, please accept my apology if for any reason you feel put down or insulted or otherwise slighted, as this not my intention and any such result is purely accidental and I greatly appreciate all the profesional points of view expressed in these forums and find them enlightening and educational.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Nah, no insult here.  I'm not a DIB.    And by the way, I have not worked on any Hulls in recent memory either.  Potatoe... Potato, Tomatoe... Tomato.    :duel:  Back to the show then.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Additional for Lex Parimonia on the "wren" thing.

The Navy of the last 20 years is quite different from the one of the seventies and eighties. Then, woman were not allowed at sea, at least not until the last few years of the seventies, and then it started slowly. There was lot of resistance at fisrt, as you can imagine. Women, who were performing beyond the call of duty in shore positions in everything from communication to shipping control, to Maritime Command's op center "plotters" and staff, were still refered to as "wrens" because it connected them to the wartime service and wartime performance of their predecessors, and it was something to be very proud of. In particular (and few people remember this) in WWII, the Wrens operated all the harbour service crafts (every task and trade) in order to free up the men for combat duty. Thus, when the decision was made to remove that "badge of honour" from them in 1979 (if I remember right), it created a lot of resentment, which only faded after a fashion because they were finally allowed in the hard sea trades. I am sure that, unless you were dealing with female PO's and LCdr's and above in the early 1990, few  others would have remembered the "wren/seaman debate, and I am quite certain that by 2000 just about no one was left that knew of it, save in very elated ranks.

And Jollyjacktar: did we sail together? Were you on Protecteur when Capt. Guy commanded?

 

[Kirkhill]

and the MGS, and the CASW, and the....

Griffon?

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

Oh! and Lex Parsimonia, in Canada we use the Queen's English (or at least our own version of it, which is why I used the Canadian Oxford Dictionnary). I just note that the US dictionnary you use show our southern cousins having the concepts reversed, as usual .

Got me on the U.S. source  :-[ although I thought that was an elegant way of explaining the terms.  The Government of Canada’s Translation Bureau ‘Terminology Standardization’ notes that “The terms "seaman" "mariner" and "sailor" are used interchangeably in general contexts although the term "mariner" is often restricted to legal documents.” 

Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.  I generally enjoy your posts and agree with your point of view.

Regards,

Lex

 

[vonGarvin]

Screw "Sailor", "Seaman" and "Wren". I just call them all "Hairy Bags".  But affectionately, if that counts for anything ;D

 

[jollyjacktar]

LOL, Hairy Bag works for me too.

OGBD, I never sailed on the (cough "Enemy Ship") Protecteur.  Preserver and a CaribOps on Provider only for Tankers.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The Government of Canada’s Translation Bureau

These are the same folks that originally  translated Lieutenant-commander and Commander  into French with "lieutenant-commandeur" and "commandeur" until we pointed out to them that, in French, commandeur has a single possible meaning: the leader of a religious faith (As in the Queen, commander of the faith, etc.). Now, as a Franco LCdr myself, I will confess to having an extensive religious vocabulary, but I would not style myself a leader in the way I use it

 

[Neill McKay]

These are the same folks that originally  translated Lieutenant-commander and Commander  into French with "lieutenant-commandeur" and "commandeur" until we pointed out to them that, in French, commandeur has a single possible meaning: the leader of a religious faith (As in the Queen, commander of the faith, etc.). Now, as a Franco LCdr myself, I will confess to having an extensive religious vocabulary, but I would not style myself a leader in the way I use it

It sounds like you're the perfect person to ask for an opinion on the importation of French Navy ranks into Canadian use, then!

 

[MarkOttawa]

DID round-up:

Canada’s C$ 2.9B “Joint Support Ship” Project, Take 2
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/canada-issues-rfp-for-cdn-29b-joint-support-ship-project-updated-02392/

As part of its spate of military modernization announcements issued just before Canada Day (July 1) 2006, the Canadian government issued an RFP that began the process of defining and building 3 “Joint Support Ships.” The aim was to deliver 3 multi-role vessels with substantially more capability than the current Protecteur Class oiler and resupply ships. In addition to being able to provide at-sea support (re-fueling and re-supply) to deployed naval task groups, the new JSS ships were envisioned as ships that would also be capable of sealift operations, as well as amphibious support to forces deployed ashore.

This was expected to be a C$ 2.9 billion (USD $2.58 billion) project. DID describes the process, the 4 pre-qualified industry teams participating, and some of the issues swirling around Canada’s very ambitious specifications. Specifications that ultimately sank the whole project, in a manner that was predictable from the outset [emphasis added]. Leaving Canada’s navy with a serious problem. Will a second go-round in 2012-13 help any?...

July 14/10: Canada’s Department of National Defence (DND) issues background materials concerning a second attempt at the JSS project. Specifications are very, very thin [emphasis added]. The second go-round is listed as a C$ 2.6 billion project, though currency strength would offset some of the $300 million reduction. So would the revised plan of buying 2 ships, with an option for a 3rd.

Canada’s proposed shipbuilding strategy fits into the plan, but a construction bid can’t be expected before 2012 at the earliest. The mission description is close to meaningless [emphasis added], and will remain so until tradeoffs are specified among these capabilities, and exact requirements become clearer...

Jan 18/10: The Dutch go ahead with their own multi-role “Joint Logistics Support Ship” program, with a budget of EUR 385.5 million for 1 ship [emphasis added, do the math for our cost per ship]. Could this represent a JSS contender if the project resurfaces? Read “Dutch Order Multi-Purpose Support Ship” for the full story...
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Dutch-Order-Multi-Purpose-Support-Ship-06113/

'Nuff bolded.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I do not think the dutch JSS fits the bill for reasons I have expressed earlier (around March I think): The dutch JSS is the reverse of what we are looking for: It is a land operations support ship that happens to  have some ancillary capability to act as a limited AOR. We are looking for the reverse. The Dutch JSS simply cannot carry the fuel load Canada is looking for.

And N. McKay: Ask away. Though I suspect your question will be: why do we use something "French" when we are in canada.  Well its not just French, the terminology we employ is latin based: There are no  language routed in Latin that have the concepts of "commander" as it is known in English, but they  ALL have the same progression of Captains: Corvette, Frigate and Vessel (ship of the line). And it is a recognized rule of translation that you do not transpose words literally but rather use the other language's corresponding concept. We pointed it out to Ottawa and they agreed. Personally , I could have lived with Lieutenant-commandant and Commandant, but I think there were worries that commandant, as a rank, could be confused with commanding officer  as an appointment.

If your question is different: ask it again please.

 

[Neill McKay]

If your question is different: ask it again please.

Thanks -- I think you've answered it.  I was wondering what you (or Francophone officers in general) thought of it, as opposed to why it was done.