AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[jollyjacktar]

Yeah, IMHO we're screwed.

 

[MilEME09]

its to be expected though, its not like we regularly build these types of ships, we only build them when we need them, so we have no experience in actually costs vs theoretical costs. The entire project will be much higher I bet

 

[The Bread Guy]

Highlights mine....

The Government of Canada today announced that a ship design for the Joint Support Ships being acquired for the Royal Canadian Navy has been selected, as part of the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy.

The selection of the Joint Support Ship design was conducted through a transparent assessment process, involving multiple government departments and third party advisors, based on three criteria: operational capability, affordability, and the cost and schedule risks associated with building the ship. The process was monitored by audit firm KPMG, as an independent third-party. First Marine International, a recognized firm of shipbuilding experts, provided ship construction costing expertise.

Two viable ship design options were commissioned for the Joint Support Ships: an existing design and a new design by BMT Fleet Technology. Based on rigorous analysis and assessments by government officials and military experts, the proven, off-the-shelf ship design from ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems Canada was selected as the best design option for the Royal Canadian Navy and for Canadian taxpayers.

Canada will provide the design to Vancouver Shipyards Co. Ltd, to review in preparation for actual production. This design development work will be led by Vancouver Shipyards Co. Ltd., as part of the Joint Support Ship definition contract to be negotiated between Canada and the shipyard. Once these steps are completed, Canada will acquire the required licensing for the ship design. This license will enable Canada to use the ship design and build, operate, and maintain the Joint Support Ships – right in here in Canada. This effort will also enhance technical skills and knowledge among Canadian shipyard staff, to be leveraged as the shipyard builds the subsequent ships assigned under the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy.

The Joint Support Ships, which will be built by workers at Vancouver Shipyards Co. Ltd, will supply deployed Naval Task Groups with fuel, ammunition, spare parts, food and water. They will also provide a home base for maintenance and operation of helicopters, a limited sealift capability, and support to forces deployed ashore.

DND/CF Info-machine, 2 Jun 13

 

[Lineman]

Halifax Shipping News posts the Berlin Class AOR has been chosen as the new Joint Support Ship. However there are no links to the government announcement nor could I find any news on any Government of Canada Website
http://blog.halifaxshippingnews.ca/

Link to Naval Technology.com
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/berlin-class-fleet-auxiliary-vessels/

 

[PuckChaser]

At least they're not reinventing the wheel here.

 

[Kirkhill]

The best part about this: a decision has been made.

 

[Stoker]

Halifax Shipping News posts the the Berlin Class AOR has been chosen as the new Joint Support Ship. However there are no links to the government announcement nor could I find any news on any Goverment of Canada Website
http://blog.halifaxshippingnews.ca/

Link to Naval Technology.com
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/berlin-class-fleet-auxiliary-vessels/

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=4821

 

[Kirkhill]

Not the best quality source, I admit, but the only one I could come up with:

$445,000,000 US (or about E340,000,000) for a Type 702 from New Wars.  New Wars appears to have lost its link to the original information.

445,000,000 US = 445,000,000 CAD

445,000,000 CAD x 1.15 to allow for 15% Made In Canada premium = Target cost in 2008 dollars = 512,000,000

512,000,000 CAD x 1.3 to allow for 2.7% per annum inflation between 2008 cost and 2018 delivery = 668,000,000 CAD Target cost in 2018 dollars.

Two vessels contracted = 2x 668,000,000 = 1,336,000,000 CAD

Acquisition Budget = 2,600,000,000 CAD

Budget Remainder = 1,224,000,000 CAD

Accountants and Vendors to justify variances as license fees and project management costs.

Anything left over to be spent on third ship and/or BHS.

op:

Edit to add a better trace on the price (from the comments on the New Wars site)

Scott B. PERMALINK
February 28, 2010 5:47 pm
German Type 702 Berlin-class AOR : €330 million for 3rd ship (A1413 Bonn), i.e. about $445 million per unit.
Source : German DOD press release, 18 December 2008
“Die Kosten für die Beschaffung belaufen sich auf rund 330 Millionen Euro einschließlich der Herstellung der Versorgungsreife.”

 

[Haletown]

While admitting to not being that much of a ship guy, the Berlin class looks pleasing to this landlubber's eye

http://www.wrightys-warships.com/type-702-berlin-class.html

The shot showing the stern and starboard side is particularly nice.  I can only assume the ships's capacities and capabilities will do the job the RCN needs done.



This news will be well received in the Vancouver marine industry.  A number of  related/supporting programs and activities have been held in juggling mode waiting for a decision. I have a peripheral involvement in some marine apprentice training programs that are NSPS dependent and the funds can now start moving. 

 

[Kirkhill]

More info on the vessel from Flensburger Schiffgebau - the yard that built the Berlins.

EGV Berlin Type 702

Another interesting product from Flensburger here  as well as the Strategic Ro-Ros built for MOD charter (as adjuncts to the RNs LPDs/LHDs and the RFAs LSD(A)s).

 

[AlexanderM]

If we build 2, there should definitely be money left over from the $2.6 billion budget.  These ships would typically cost about $500 million each to build.

 

[Kirkhill]

Alex:

I'm inclined to agree with you but we're not in a position to presuppose much of anything.

 

[AlexanderM]

Alex:

I'm inclined to agree with you but we're not in a position to presuppose much of anything.

I know, as I wrote the above I was thinking, now watch them spend every dime.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I spent over 35 years in the military, the last quarter (plus) of that in NDHQ, including a stint on the staff of the two star who oversaw major capital acquisitions ...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
... I predict cost overruns before the project is completed.

 

[AlexanderM]

The only upside is, this side of the program is Seaspan and I have more confidence in Seaspan then in Irving.  I had a job interview with them several years ago.  I see their operation every day, notice the ships come and go.  They do seem to have their act together, although I've heard that they do have labor problems, meaning problems with the unions.  Although they should be able to put together a good deal with the unions for these big contracts, generally everyone's happy when there's lots of money around.

 

[GAP]

I spent over 35 years in the military, the last quarter (plus) of that in NDHQ, including a stint on the staff of the two star who oversaw major capital acquisitions ...
.
.
... I predict cost overruns before the project is completedstarted.

TFTFY.....

 

[Kirkhill]

I spent over 35 years in the military, the last quarter (plus) of that in NDHQ, including a stint on the staff of the two star who oversaw major capital acquisitions ...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
... I predict cost overruns before the project is completed.

And in other news:

ERC predicts the sun will rise in the morning..... ;D

 

[jollyjacktar]

While I'm pleased to see they've chosen a "tanker" instead of the damn silly swiss army knife JSS, that still leaves us with out any heavy lift with a Amphib or RORO.  I did ask the Admiral during my last town hall I attended as to WTF we didn't snap up one of the Bay class ships the RN was practically giving away as we need the heavy lift for humanitarian missions like Haiti if nothing else.  His answer didn't answer anything and was wholly unsatisfactory, so I went down and put it again to his face after the meeting.  He feels we don't need to worry as the EU is basically bankrupt and they'll be selling off others down the road at bargain basement prices.  :  I hate it when we squander excellent opportunities like that, politics be damned.

 

[NavyShooter]

After buying the Upholders, I'm sure the RCN is once bitten twice shy (particularly in front of the media) over buying used from the Brits...

Just my thoughts.

NS

 

[jollyjacktar]

Yes, you're right.  We got our fingers burned and righfully so on the new subs.  They saw us coming and we called ahead too.  But, the Bay class amphibs are another story.  They were a deal we should not have passed up.