AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[FSTO]

Actually the numbers l have seen put the RCN numbers over the civilian sailors.

Hmm interesting.

 

[Stoker]

TROOPS!?!
Well if we allow the mud monkeys on our pristine ships it better be in the sea cans located on the upper decks so that we can hose them out after they dis-embark! :evil:

Sailors on the other hand know all about ships husbandry and they'll be clean. As for the civilians, (Astrix will have a small RCN cadre but the majority of the ships company will be civilian) well I bet there will be some sort of cleaning staff on board?

Actually there will be more RCN personnel than civilians, up to a 114 fully manned with aircrew.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Actually the numbers l have seen put the RCN numbers over the civilian sailors.

Everything I have heard concurs.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

It is also consistent with what I have seen, with one nuance: It would be about 114 CAF personnel, vice RCN.

That is due to two facts: The air group, when embarked, the medical/dental personnel, all logistics personnel are to be CAF. On top of that, all cargo handling - jackstays and refuelling equipment included - is in the hands of the RCN, as will be all CAF related communications.

It leaves navigation, marine communications and engineering only in the hands of the civilian crew, and with their standards and certification approach, that is a much lower number than a military crew would be.

The one aspect I don't know is food services. I don't know if it is to be civilian, military or mixed when military personnel is on board. If civilian merchant marine cooks were employed for everything, that would take some pressure off from the fleet.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Generally there are a number of improvements in survivability and redundancy on military ships vice civilian ships in grey paint.  WRT the Asterix vs JSS there are a few:

-Asterix has a single shaft line, engine, rudder.  JSS will have two of each of those. 
-Asterix has less compartmentalization than the JSS, thus any damage it does sustain is potentially more disastrous as fire or flood can spread further more easily.
-Asterix has no ballistic protection, thus smaller caliber weapons can do more damage and explosions do more damage. 
-Asterix won't have self defence capability aside from some 50 cals for port security, where JSS will have hard and soft kill measures for many different threats (Nixie, ECM, MASS, CIWS, etc..). 
-JSS will also be able to operate in a chemical, biological and radiation environment, Asterix won't.
-JSS is edge ice capable, (Asterix might be but haven't found a reference that says it is so assuming no).

There are other differences but I think you get the picture.  Not to say Asterix isn't a good solution to a problem we have.  I'm not opposed to a high-low mix for the AORs.  Asterix can do a ton of good work in many ways where a proper warfighting AOR isn't required.

Davie claims that the forward deployable thruster is adequate to bring the ship home on it's own. As mentioned the Asterix combined with the JSS makes a good combo and it has the benefit of being here now.
 

 

[jollyjacktar]

It is also consistent with what I have seen, with one nuance: It would be about 114 CAF personnel, vice RCN.

That is due to two facts: The air group, when embarked, the medical/dental personnel, all logistics personnel are to be CAF. On top of that, all cargo handling - jackstays and refuelling equipment included - is in the hands of the RCN, as will be all CAF related communications.

It leaves navigation, marine communications and engineering only in the hands of the civilian crew, and with their standards and certification approach, that is a much lower number than a military crew would be.

The one aspect I don't know is food services. I don't know if it is to be civilian, military or mixed when military personnel is on board. If civilian merchant marine cooks were employed for everything, that would take some pressure off from the fleet.

The majority of CAF folks will be Bos'n.  This will really eat into the trade numbers. 

The cooks and stewards are jobs listed on the Federal Fleet Services website of what they're looking for in civilian crewmembers.

http://federalfleet.ca/work-with-us/#toggle-id-11

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

First, I am glad to see that the cooks and stewards will be coming from Federal Services.

Second, AORs have always been Bosn' ships and seamanship intensive. It's the nature of the beast. The Asterix is no different and she should not take more Bosns than any other AOR. So in theory, since the Navy should still be operating two AORs currently, it should not put any undue pressure on the trade that would not otherwise be there already.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Interesting, there will also be a Civ Bosun as well.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Interesting, there will also be a Civ Bosun as well.

My understanding is that the Civ deckhands will be doing the watch on deck and general seamanship evolutions and the CF Boatswains will be RAS Deck Operators, Small boat drivers and Small Arms custodians.

Funny enough we are putting a Supply sect on board as well. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

First, I am glad to see that the cooks and stewards will be coming from Federal Services.

Second, AORs have always been Bosn' ships and seamanship intensive. It's the nature of the beast. The Asterix is no different and she should not take more Bosns than any other AOR. So in theory, since the Navy should still be operating two AORs currently, it should not put any undue pressure on the trade that would not otherwise be there already.

They are a little short in numbers at the moment, like we are.  And the turn over will be quicker for our folks too as the tempo will be more demanding.  I think they're talking about 12-18 month postings before changing out.  It's going to be more juggling for the manglers but should give lots of good exposure to more folks as a plus side.

 

[Kirkhill]

Will the RCN be putting more than the minimum number of Bos'ns required on board the Asterix in order to maintain/recreate skills resulting from the lack of AORs and the loss of the DDHs?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

And Chris, what seamanship evolutions, pray tell, do you think are carried out on DDH's that are not carried out on the FFH's? (I mean other than setting up the awnings for receptions all the time because they  were the senior officer's ships)  ;D

All joking aside,  it will restart and maintain the skills needed to operate the new PRO class vessels when they come on line, but you don't need to overstaff the Asterix to do that. The general rotation of personnel should take care of that.

For those unfamiliar with civil side mariners world: every ship has a Bosn. He is just the most senior seaman on a crew (we would call the position Buffer) and, yes, since the Asterix will run the navigation watches, they will have seaman onboard to do that, and run basic evolutions such as coming alongside and anchoring, and the Bosun will have responsibility for the maintenance of these and the basic life saving equipment such as life rafts, etc. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

Yes and no.  We won't be keeping up the legacy-HT skills from Tanker days, those positions are civilian.  I don't know why they don't have provisions for some famil training to keep the skills active, but they don't.  The only legacy-HT that are going there are a MS and PO2 for the HCRFF and Flyco.

 

[Kirkhill]

OGBD

Wasn't thinking so much about different skills required by deckhands in the DDHs and the FFHs but simply the loss of number of positions resulting from dropping from 16 hulls to 12 hulls.  I assumed that the AORs had different requirements.

And I think you may have finally put your finger on what might sell a larger ship.


Something in which you can stow a bunch of DFAIT types with a decent bar, a useful deck for helicopters, awnings and massed bands at sunset and a crew of bosn's well versed in twirling boathooks as they man multiple barges.

Lots of maple leaves and gold leaf everywhere.  ;D

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Is the manning setup for the Resolve class a good thing for training the new generation of sailors to be tomorrows Bosuns or is it going to mean that we be using the expertise we currently have with little mentorship and training for the next generation of sailors?

 

[jollyjacktar]

Is the manning setup for the Resolve class a good thing for training the new generation of sailors to be tomorrows Bosuns or is it going to mean that we be using the expertise we currently have with little mentorship and training for the next generation of sailors?

Yes, these billets are important to keep the Tanker skills alive until the RCN take possession of the new PRO class.  They are, however, missing the boat with not keeping the Legacy HT training up.  Asterix will be having those duties covered off with civilian personnel.  That is, IMHOP, a mistake.  One I pointed out to them last year and I am disappointed it was not corrected.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

HT = Horizontal transfers, correct? I am not sure anyone in the commercial world does this underway, so they have to hire ex-navy supervisors.

 

[jollyjacktar]

HT = Horizontal transfers, correct? I am not sure anyone in the commercial world does this underway, so they have to hire ex-navy supervisors.

I am sure there are many Stokers who would use that term.  (that makes me laugh..)  No, HT = Hull Technician.  On the Tankers we took care of the Liquid Cargo and were in charge of it until it either went into the Ship's bunkers or was delivered to the ship we would be RASing with.  The Fuel Custodian, I was for a year or more, would ensure that all fuel quality tests (F-44 and F-76), tank ullages were done on a daily, weekly as required basis.  We were in charge of bunkering the ship when were were doing consolidation RAS with another Tanker or when we were at a Tank Farm or Refinery.  We had our own Liquid Cargo Officer (LCO)who was in my day a Naval Constructor and the DC Officer.  The Bosns made sure the hoses made it across to the other ship and would tell our man on the Fuel Dump when the ship we were fuellilng wanted to start or stop pumping.  We also took care of the Fresh Water cargo once the Stokers had made it with the Evaporators and delivered it to the FW tanks.  The Stokers would man the Steam Driven Cargo pumps and pump under the directions of our PO1.  We would correct the ballast of the ship as required by either moving fuel or water as needed on an as needed basis too. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

thanks, on a commercial ship it would be one of the mates/ships officers to do the stability calculations and advise the engineer which tank to pump to and from, with the Bosun running the deck crew to conduct the movement of hoses likely under the eye of the 2nd officer. It will be interesting to see how they manage the 2 different cultures. I suspect doing practice runs with freshwater might be an idea to get the bugs out. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

In speaking with the Federal Fleet folks they're hoping to have ex-RCN crew whenever possible.  Shouldn't be too much worries about culture from that standpoint.