Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

[Kirkhill]

One of the issues would be the safety zone around the oil terminal

View attachment 94439

Better off covering that ground in tanks of WCS Oil from Churchill. If we want to maintain a steady pace of 1 million barrels per day but only have a snow-bird season (182 days) to ship then we need to build holding capacity. Some in Saint John and/or Argentia, some in Churchill, some in Hardisty and some in Edmonton.

Some refined. Some crude.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Stupid question here: Are the two Coast Guard ship so advanced in their construction that they couldn't be turned back into the RCN design?

If they can, I agree with SKT. Sell two of the current AOPS to the Americans (or use "giving" them to the US to get a break either in Trade Agreement negotiations or in getting a break on US military equipment we are about to buy (SPY7, Poseidon, etc.), then get the CCG ones turned back into RCN ones for replacements.

Then Get three of these built, either in the Netherlands or under license by Hedley, for the Coast Guard:

OPV 1800 Coast Guard - Offshore Patrol Vessel | Damen

Damen Offshore Patrol Vessel 1800 Coast Guard offers high endurance on a fully capable offshore platform. It requires much less power than typical corvettes.

www.damen.com

 

[Swampbuggy]

Stupid question here: Are the two Coast Guard ship so advanced in their construction that they couldn't be turned back into the RCN design?

If they can, I agree with SKT. Sell two of the current AOPS to the Americans (or use "giving" them to the US to get a break either in Trade Agreement negotiations or in getting a break on US military equipment we are about to buy (SPY7, Poseidon, etc.), then get the CCG ones turned back into RCN ones for replacements.

Then Get three of these built, either in the Netherlands or under license by Hedley, for the Coast Guard:

OPV 1800 Coast Guard - Offshore Patrol Vessel | Damen

Damen Offshore Patrol Vessel 1800 Coast Guard offers high endurance on a fully capable offshore platform. It requires much less power than typical corvettes.

www.damen.com

Looks like they’ll take your old beater in on trade. Maybe send a few MCDV’s there to knock the price down a bit…

 

[Stoker]

Stupid question here: Are the two Coast Guard ship so advanced in their construction that they couldn't be turned back into the RCN design?

If they can, I agree with SKT. Sell two of the current AOPS to the Americans (or use "giving" them to the US to get a break either in Trade Agreement negotiations or in getting a break on US military equipment we are about to buy (SPY7, Poseidon, etc.), then get the CCG ones turned back into RCN ones for replacements.

Then Get three of these built, either in the Netherlands or under license by Hedley, for the Coast Guard:

OPV 1800 Coast Guard - Offshore Patrol Vessel | Damen

Damen Offshore Patrol Vessel 1800 Coast Guard offers high endurance on a fully capable offshore platform. It requires much less power than typical corvettes.

www.damen.com

There are significant internal differences with less cabins, lab space, etc and that's pretty far along. Like mentioned selling 2 ships will curtail operations and taskings significantly and put a worse strain on a already maintenance intensive platform. We are already trying to replace 12 ships with 6 at least for the time being and it shows. Crews like sailing on AOPS.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

BTW, when dealing with American agencies or part of government, people constantly overlook the power of trade or barter. If there is something they want but congress wont fund it, they are more than willing to trade for it: you give it to me at no cost (thus avoiding the need for congress funding), and I give you XYZ that I already have and you want (because I can do without and disposing of it does not require congress to agree).

 

[lenaitch]

Although an Admiral is a lofty rank, I suspect there a lot of folks above them, particularly on the civilian side, who would say 'hells no - we ain't buying no 'ferrin' boat'.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

There are significant internal differences with less cabins, lab space, etc and that's pretty far along. Like mentioned selling 2 ships will curtail operations and taskings significantly and put a worse strain on a already maintenance intensive platform. We are already trying to replace 12 ships with 6 at least for the time being and it shows. Crews like sailing on AOPS.

I know there are significant differences. That is not what I asked. I asked if AT THIS STAGE OF CONSTRUCTION it is possible to easily go back to the RCN design.

As to the issue of operational tasking and operations, everyone's impression in these fora was that we don't currently have the sailors to man them all anyway. Is that still the case, or did we magically acquire all the people we need to operate them all at this time?

 

[Stoker]

I know there are significant differences. That is not what I asked. I asked if AT THIS STAGE OF CONSTRUCTION it is possible to easily go back to the RCN design.

As to the issue of operational tasking and operations, everyone's impression in these fora was that we don't currently have the sailors to man them all anyway. Is that still the case, or did we magically acquire all the people we need to operate them all at this time?

I thought I answered your question when I said" Its pretty far along" and "significant changes".... don't be an arse. The only people who can truly answer your question about reverting back is Irving and for a price they probably could given enough money and time. Seems to me Irving wants this project concluded so they can get at the assembly hall modifications for RCD.

As far as I know all will be crewed, Max Bernays currently is will soon be going on a 5 month deployment and so are the others on the EC have crews. The only other one that I have a question about is hull 6, but given all WC Kingston class will soon be put alongside forever there should be enough to crew that. Each AOPS also has reserve billets that alleviate the overall crewing picture.

 

[dapaterson]

The ultimate plot twist would be a transfer of an RCN AOPs to USCG getting hung up on USN imposing ITAR restrictions scuttling the whole thing.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The ultimate plot twist would be a transfer of an RCN AOPs to USCG getting hung up on USN imposing ITAR restrictions scuttling the whole thing.

And I would not be in the least bit shocked by such a turn of events.

 

[Cloud Cover]

We can “loan” 2 AOPS to the US indefinitely and circumvent the ITAR end user block. In return they can “loan” Canada something of comparable value. We can even grant them rights to modify any IP, but the modifications are then exclusively licensed back to Canada without any subsequent sub licensing rights. That way we gain the benefit of any useful knowledge or mods made by them, to be used in our own products as long as we don’t sell them to another country. That is type of symbiotic defence production relationship we want with the United States.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Interesting comment made in the Hurly Burly podcast by Admiral Topshee about the USCG wanting to buy AOPS, because it's "exactly the type of ship they are looking for".

Great watch. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Underway]

Great watch. Thank you for sharing.

I liked it a lot. Some funny stuff in there, like his sliding past mentioning that CMS 330 is made by Lockheed. Lol

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I liked it a lot. Some funny stuff in there, like his sliding past mentioning that CMS 330 is made by Lockheed. Lol

To be fair, he has to stay on DND messaging and one of his interview goals was to talk up Canada's ability to support the navy, NSS and the military in general. I think he prepared well for the interview, did very little baffle gabbing and very little waffling.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Given the state of the RCN and CCG's old and haggard vessels, it makes little sense in my opinion to give away our newest, nicest and most popular postings to the United States for money/trades that we cannot translate into our operational needs. They can't give us ships, considering how they don't have enough for their own requirements right now and what they have we do not want. Money/carveouts towards future procurements? Great, but how does that help the RCN/CCG now and into the immediate future? Any ships we procure basically have to come domestically and there is no amount of money you could flush into the system to conjure enough ships in the relevant timeframe to cover the loss of 2 AOPS from either fleet.

We are getting the AOPS into their fully operational stride and the ships are more than coming into their own, with deployments abroad regularly and great performance seemingly coming from these operations. It seems counterintuitive to knee cap this in a time where we have a significant gap in seaworthy hulls with the upcoming Kingston retirement and the Rivers being far, far from service. The US is more than happy to treat us with disdain politically and like just another customer, tell them to get in line with everybody else if they want our design. Our requirements and concerns come before we kowtow to the USCG of all organizations.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Well there are these two AORs currently in the reserve fleet that might be a nice trade.
Yes I know how old they are but they're surprisingly low mileage.
And the ability to move at a 26 knots and basic provide a Canadian task group with what I suspect would be roughly 6-8 months worth of fuel and other supplies.
Well it just might come in handy.

 

[YZT580]

Well there are these two AORs currently in the reserve fleet that might be a nice trade.
Yes I know how old they are but they're surprisingly low mileage.
And the ability to move at a 26 knots and basic provide a Canadian task group with what I suspect would be roughly 6-8 months worth of fuel and other supplies.
Well it just might come in handy.

But would they trade even or want something else on top? It would certainly help out and provide the fleet of 4 that we should have. On the other hand, do we actually have the hulls to put together a Canadian Task group realistically? I ask as someone with only cursory knowledge of what is really seaworthy and available.

 

[Underway]

So if you want to trade, we have to look a the mission requirements right now for the AOPS, what its doing and if the loss of, in this case, two would significantly impact that.

Losing two AOPS would mean we lose the ability to sail 2 AOPS at all times for various missions. We go from a 100% availability rate to a 50% availability rate. Remember rule of thumb for ships is 1 available for operations, 2 in maintenance or crew training.

I like the idea, I like the outside the box thinking on this, I don't think its applicable right now. If those last two AOPS were RCN then I think we would have options, but as it stands not really an option.

Its to bad the US and other countries now expressing interest didn't say anything 3 years ago when we were trying to figure out the build gap. But of course the ship wasn't proven yet, so I get it.

 

[Swampbuggy]

Well there are these two AORs currently in the reserve fleet that might be a nice trade.
Yes I know how old they are but they're surprisingly low mileage.
And the ability to move at a 26 knots and basic provide a Canadian task group with what I suspect would be roughly 6-8 months worth of fuel and other supplies.
Well it just might come in handy.

What about an outright purchase that helps to grease the wheels of some other procurement or a form of diplomatic detente? Before the RCD’s come onboard and with the CPF’s being used increasingly sparingly, we could be a useful part of multinational task forces as suppliers and force enablers.

 

[Kirkhill]

What about an outright purchase that helps to grease the wheels of some other procurement or a form of diplomatic detente? Before the RCD’s come onboard and with the CPF’s being used increasingly sparingly, we could be a useful part of multinational task forces as suppliers and force enablers.

How about just moving a couple of AOPS into the USCG patrol areas and bring US Coasties aboard? It seems to be a workable plan for USN nuclear subs. And the RCN already seems to work with the USCG in Op Caribbe. Then start building new ships in the existing hall a Halifax and build a new RCD hall.