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Good enough then. Let's all only go to the range every 5 years, and hope against hope that we score fairly well
Are Armed Forces demonstration teams relevent?
- Thread starter Armymedic
- Start date
lets not get into a pissing match here.....
we all need the basic skills to do our job...whether that be 40 mins of hands and feet, or 60 more rounds down range.
And chopperwhatever your name is.....the Tutor is what makes the routine so special. You think you can pack 9 hornets into a formation and still here the 80's David Foster music? No way dude.
we all need the basic skills to do our job...whether that be 40 mins of hands and feet, or 60 more rounds down range.
And chopperwhatever your name is.....the Tutor is what makes the routine so special. You think you can pack 9 hornets into a formation and still here the 80's David Foster music? No way dude.
Many bases, like Petawawa, have a Pipe Major and Drum Instrucor and the remainder of the band is made of volunteers from both military and civilian life. The 2nd Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group Pipes and Drums currently have 19 members: a Drum Major, eleven pipers, eight drummers and an additional two members who help form a separate Ceilidh band. These all fall under the direction of the Pipe Major, Warrant Officer Colin Clansey, and the Drum Instructor, Corporal John Pakenham. The Band consists of regular force army musicians and armed forces personnel detailed from their respective units, augmented by military and civilian volunteers.
Reducing the CF Bands much below the 6 would not save a lot of money. Reducing the funding from 40+ to 6 and closing the school saved a lot back in 1997.
Recruiting Info:
Since the closure of the Canadian Forces School of Music in 1994, the Canadian Forces have been enrolling skilled musicians only. Competitions are held periodically for available positions in the six Regular Force bands. In the past, successful applicants have typically been experienced, professional musicians, many of them having a degree in Music Performance. This remains the standard expected of applicants today.
Reducing the CF Bands much below the 6 would not save a lot of money. Reducing the funding from 40+ to 6 and closing the school saved a lot back in 1997.
Recruiting Info:
Since the closure of the Canadian Forces School of Music in 1994, the Canadian Forces have been enrolling skilled musicians only. Competitions are held periodically for available positions in the six Regular Force bands. In the past, successful applicants have typically been experienced, professional musicians, many of them having a degree in Music Performance. This remains the standard expected of applicants today.
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short final said:
Relax "dude" the T-50 is not a hornet but whatever thats not the point. The point was that the Tutors are getting very old and to the end of life and need to be replaced. Sure they still fly but so do the SeaKings only they require alot of maintence and sometimes fall out of the sky well lets not wait untill the Tuturs start falling out of the sky and people are dying before they get replaced. Maybe the T-50 isnt a good choice I don't know It was just a sugestion. You dont think so? well lets here something better then.
Kyle
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ChopperHead said:
Easy there buddy, I know I asked this question already in this thread, but...... You don't know a lot about flying do you?
Aircraft do not fall out of the sky, and a little FYI, the Sea King you're thinking of that crashed on the Iroquois, crashed due to a compressor stall on a brand new engine. One more little tidbit for you, Sea Kings are currently holding SAR Standby because the brand new Cormorants are grounded yet again for tail rotor problems. So newer isn't always better, especially if it doesn't work like it's supposed to.
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I would argue that the CF needs to drastically raise the profile of its Demo Teams, and that this is something that the Army especially is lacking in. Whatever the cost, the benefit in PR, recruiting, and general awareness is more than worth it.
An Army Drill Team, or Regimental Drill Teams, of the calibre of the USMC Silent Drill Team for example, would be a huge PR tool for the military and portray the military as we want it - disciplined, professional, dedicated, and impressive. I've seen many foreign drill teams at the Halifax Tattoo, and all of them were stunning and impressive, especially to civilians. A company sized Guard could tour the country, perhaps for a few months a year, and do displays at festivals, public events, sporting events, etc - imagine the season opener Maple Leafs game opening with an RCR/Army drill show.
The CF seems to under-utilize Demo Teams in general - the Navy Gun Run, the LdSH Riding Troop, the parachute display team (who's name escapes me at the moment). I don't understand why the LdSH riding team doesn't have a higher profile - from what I've seen, they're certainly as good as the RCMP Musical Ride, but far less well known.
Personally, I've never found the Snowbirds that spectacular to watch - certainly amazing flying, but I was always more impressed by the big/noisy/earth shaking fighters flying low and fast. I know there are huge cost limitations to equipping them with CF-18s, as well as questions over the flying, but I think giving them CF-18s would change the perception of the CF and Air Force in the public eye.
I don't want more bands. I don't want flying teams in geriatric training aircraft. I want Demo teams that clearly emphasize basic military values and the purpose and capabilities of the Forces.
An Army Drill Team, or Regimental Drill Teams, of the calibre of the USMC Silent Drill Team for example, would be a huge PR tool for the military and portray the military as we want it - disciplined, professional, dedicated, and impressive. I've seen many foreign drill teams at the Halifax Tattoo, and all of them were stunning and impressive, especially to civilians. A company sized Guard could tour the country, perhaps for a few months a year, and do displays at festivals, public events, sporting events, etc - imagine the season opener Maple Leafs game opening with an RCR/Army drill show.
The CF seems to under-utilize Demo Teams in general - the Navy Gun Run, the LdSH Riding Troop, the parachute display team (who's name escapes me at the moment). I don't understand why the LdSH riding team doesn't have a higher profile - from what I've seen, they're certainly as good as the RCMP Musical Ride, but far less well known.
Personally, I've never found the Snowbirds that spectacular to watch - certainly amazing flying, but I was always more impressed by the big/noisy/earth shaking fighters flying low and fast. I know there are huge cost limitations to equipping them with CF-18s, as well as questions over the flying, but I think giving them CF-18s would change the perception of the CF and Air Force in the public eye.
I don't want more bands. I don't want flying teams in geriatric training aircraft. I want Demo teams that clearly emphasize basic military values and the purpose and capabilities of the Forces.
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Inch...
Your right compared to you who I assume are a pilot ( I didn't check your profile ) I don't know much about flying but I do know enough. Lets not get technical on the vocabulary here when I say that the planes fall out of the sky I don't literally mean just drop I mean from technical problems like engine failure or whatever it may be and go down. I'm not gonna argue with you about this stuff because obviously you know more then I do but I mean the Tutors are getting old, one recently crashed because of an engine failure I believe, I don't know the circumstances behind it but regardless I think they need to be replaced before any other problems arise from ageing equipment being used in such advanced maneuvers. Just don't you think that if the snowbirds are out there showing Canada and the rest of the world our the best the airforce has to offer they should be equipt with the best possible modern aircraft not planes that were built back in late 60's.
Your right compared to you who I assume are a pilot ( I didn't check your profile ) I don't know much about flying but I do know enough. Lets not get technical on the vocabulary here when I say that the planes fall out of the sky I don't literally mean just drop I mean from technical problems like engine failure or whatever it may be and go down. I'm not gonna argue with you about this stuff because obviously you know more then I do but I mean the Tutors are getting old, one recently crashed because of an engine failure I believe, I don't know the circumstances behind it but regardless I think they need to be replaced before any other problems arise from ageing equipment being used in such advanced maneuvers. Just don't you think that if the snowbirds are out there showing Canada and the rest of the world our the best the airforce has to offer they should be equipt with the best possible modern aircraft not planes that were built back in late 60's.
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Shortfinal, your post was priceless....
And chopperwhatever your name is.....the Tutor is what makes the routine so special. You think you can pack 9 hornets into a formation and still here the 80's David Foster music? No way dude.
Remove the demo teams? How else are you going to draw new recruits!? Posters above the urinals on campus that do little to make someone want to visit the CFRC?
The CF is invisible. Sorry but it is a fact. How many exceptional people go to the CFRC wanting to be a pilot because they saw the Snowbirds, find out they don't meet the requirements to become a pilot and end up taking another trade just to be in the CF. How many people want to jump out of a Buffalo on Canada Day as a member of the SkyHawks and head off to CFRC? It starts there. Not for all but perhaps those who may not have considered a career in the CF otherwise.
Personally, I think the CF is in deep when it comes to recruiting would-be's with the current exciting demo teams in place. Remove those advertising venues and I have no idea how you are going to attract newbee's to the CFRC.
And chopperwhatever your name is.....the Tutor is what makes the routine so special. You think you can pack 9 hornets into a formation and still here the 80's David Foster music? No way dude.
Remove the demo teams? How else are you going to draw new recruits!? Posters above the urinals on campus that do little to make someone want to visit the CFRC?
The CF is invisible. Sorry but it is a fact. How many exceptional people go to the CFRC wanting to be a pilot because they saw the Snowbirds, find out they don't meet the requirements to become a pilot and end up taking another trade just to be in the CF. How many people want to jump out of a Buffalo on Canada Day as a member of the SkyHawks and head off to CFRC? It starts there. Not for all but perhaps those who may not have considered a career in the CF otherwise.
Personally, I think the CF is in deep when it comes to recruiting would-be's with the current exciting demo teams in place. Remove those advertising venues and I have no idea how you are going to attract newbee's to the CFRC.
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ChopperHead said:
Yes, one did recently crash and early reports are it was an engine failure. These things happen with aircraft, new and old. Fuel contamination can cause an engine to flame out, it could have nothing to do with the engine itself. A Hawk had a flame out last spring due to sucking in a bird, this lead to both pilots ejecting from a 5 year old aircraft that was completely destroyed in the crash. As I said before, we got new, more powerful engines in the Sea King about 5 years ago prior to the crash on the Iroquois and in the 40 years we've had the Sea King, there's been less than a dozen fatalities. I can't remember off hand the exact specifics, but most of the Snowbirds crashes have been because of mid-air contact which would happen regardless of what they were flying.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for new aircraft for the Snowbirds but since I fly the oldest aircraft in the inventory, I'm not going to agree that age was a factor since I know the kind of maintenance and overhauls that go into aircraft on a regular basis.
Hmmm! 9 new CF-18's for the snowbirds, (252 000 000) or 1 globemaster for the whole CF?(203 000 000)
As far as the Army needing a demo team, I don't know?
We already have the Sky hawks...kinda (any element can apply)
Did recruiting go up after the winnipeg floods? or the quebec ice storm? or any forest fire in bc?
how can you get better pr than that?
Lack of new recruits is it's own animal, i don't think any demo team can help that.
As far as the Army needing a demo team, I don't know?
We already have the Sky hawks...kinda (any element can apply)
Did recruiting go up after the winnipeg floods? or the quebec ice storm? or any forest fire in bc?
how can you get better pr than that?
Lack of new recruits is it's own animal, i don't think any demo team can help that.
Enfield
Have you ever heard of the Army Gun Race team? Pretty fine example -"that clearly emphasize basic military values and the purpose and capabilities of the Forces." Ten million dollar budget, they wish!
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/LF/English/6_1_1.asp?id=624
2005 ARMY GUN RACE SCHEDULE - REMAINDER
Concert at Dusk- Lévis, Que 20-21 Aug 05
Expo Cité City of Quebec 22-25 Aug 05
Ottawa Renegades Game Ottawa 8 Sept 05
Have you ever heard of the Army Gun Race team? Pretty fine example -"that clearly emphasize basic military values and the purpose and capabilities of the Forces." Ten million dollar budget, they wish!
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/LF/English/6_1_1.asp?id=624
2005 ARMY GUN RACE SCHEDULE - REMAINDER
Concert at Dusk- Lévis, Que 20-21 Aug 05
Expo Cité City of Quebec 22-25 Aug 05
Ottawa Renegades Game Ottawa 8 Sept 05
- Reaction score
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Enfield
You have to open your eyes a little. The LdSH(RC) Riding Troop conducted a Cross-Canada Tour a couple of years back, culmunating in a trip to England, where they performed the Changing of the Guard Ceremonies at Buckingham Palace; as did a Coy of PPCLI. These various "Demonstation Teams" are out there. Have you ever visited Quebec City and La Citadel? Have you ever been in Ottawa, when a Foreign Head of State Visits? Not all of the Parades and Ceremonies are 'travelling shows'. Some are one time events or one location events. What do you think of "Freedom of the City" ceremonies? These events are happening all the time. Sometimes they even get good press coverage.
You have to open your eyes a little. The LdSH(RC) Riding Troop conducted a Cross-Canada Tour a couple of years back, culmunating in a trip to England, where they performed the Changing of the Guard Ceremonies at Buckingham Palace; as did a Coy of PPCLI. These various "Demonstation Teams" are out there. Have you ever visited Quebec City and La Citadel? Have you ever been in Ottawa, when a Foreign Head of State Visits? Not all of the Parades and Ceremonies are 'travelling shows'. Some are one time events or one location events. What do you think of "Freedom of the City" ceremonies? These events are happening all the time. Sometimes they even get good press coverage.
NDHQ have indicated in public that the CT-114 aircraft flown by 431 Squadron will be replaced in
10-15 years. Old airframes are not the problem with the aircraft, there are lots of "old" airframes
around, (DC-3, DC-8,DC-9) but the problem is in obtaining parts for the Canadair built aircraft.
There is also another problem in Canada for the Flight Demonstration Squadron; the venues where
they can show off their stuff, the so-called "major airshows" are reduced, due to ever increasing
costs. Insurance for a typical airshow in Canada used to be, before 9/11, about $10,000. Now
the premium is about $100,000. The Snowbirds need the big events to really show off their stuff.
The actual future of the Team will be decided by Federal Cabinet decision (MND-Treasury Board)
driven by media reports and public reaction. I think all military display projects are important and
need support - the Navy Gun Run has been around since about 1942 - Military band concerts
are a standard in cities like Ottawa and Halifax, Skyhawks are one of the best parachute (airborne)
teams anywhere - all important to keep a high profile in front of the public.Canada had no aircraft at
the Royal International Air Tattoo RAF Fairford UK this year, for the first time since the event was
founded, a mistake in my opinion. Go to RIAT 2005 and you will see what I mean. MacLeod
10-15 years. Old airframes are not the problem with the aircraft, there are lots of "old" airframes
around, (DC-3, DC-8,DC-9) but the problem is in obtaining parts for the Canadair built aircraft.
There is also another problem in Canada for the Flight Demonstration Squadron; the venues where
they can show off their stuff, the so-called "major airshows" are reduced, due to ever increasing
costs. Insurance for a typical airshow in Canada used to be, before 9/11, about $10,000. Now
the premium is about $100,000. The Snowbirds need the big events to really show off their stuff.
The actual future of the Team will be decided by Federal Cabinet decision (MND-Treasury Board)
driven by media reports and public reaction. I think all military display projects are important and
need support - the Navy Gun Run has been around since about 1942 - Military band concerts
are a standard in cities like Ottawa and Halifax, Skyhawks are one of the best parachute (airborne)
teams anywhere - all important to keep a high profile in front of the public.Canada had no aircraft at
the Royal International Air Tattoo RAF Fairford UK this year, for the first time since the event was
founded, a mistake in my opinion. Go to RIAT 2005 and you will see what I mean. MacLeod
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Thanks George Wallace and Gunner98 for pointing out the Demo teams the army does have.
I wasn't aware the LdSH Riding Troop was travelling so much, thats good to hear. There are a number of excellent events held in the public eye, however, I don't believe they capture the degree of showmanship and exceptionalism that I'm thinking of - specialization, I think, is the best word.
I see a world of difference between the type of performance given by (to use a well-known example) the USMC Silent Drill Team and a Freedom of the City parade or the Guards at Parliament. They are activities with different purposes, and are a different type of show.
I don't think its beneath the army to have a 'travelling show', that really is a show. The LdSH Riding Troop is the best example that I know of that the Army has.
I wasn't aware the LdSH Riding Troop was travelling so much, thats good to hear. There are a number of excellent events held in the public eye, however, I don't believe they capture the degree of showmanship and exceptionalism that I'm thinking of - specialization, I think, is the best word.
I see a world of difference between the type of performance given by (to use a well-known example) the USMC Silent Drill Team and a Freedom of the City parade or the Guards at Parliament. They are activities with different purposes, and are a different type of show.
I don't think its beneath the army to have a 'travelling show', that really is a show. The LdSH Riding Troop is the best example that I know of that the Army has.
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Re the LdSH Riding Troop,their horse's are not thoroughbreds,they are wild horse's as they were when the LdSh were created.Each horse is taken from the wild and are quite the beast.They are broken and tamed as the Reg. did in the past.They are a True Cow Boy Horse from Alberta,mangy looking things but strong and tough.George Wallace said:
How I know this is because one year the Troop was at the Abbotsford Arishow and were just 25m away from our dog and pony,when one of the Strats came up in his full rig and slapped me and another Unit member on the back,it turned out he was a former Sapper from 6Fd and told us all about thier job in the Troop and warned us don't get to close they "BITE",after his ride he showed us some scares from his beast.
The Strat Troop are to day as they were 100 yrs ago.
Good on the Strats.
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