Are Fire Fighters Over-rated? Split From- Are vets benefits "overly generous"? (split from CDS to CT

[peterpan]

I've 'transitioned' from Army to Fire, and I can confirm that Police/EMS/Fire are subject to provincial WCB/WSIB for work related injuries. Ya know, the same WSIB/WCB that Disability Awards are compared to and found to be lacking?

Also, the emergency services have an attitude of 'safety first' and 'everyone goes home'. Quite a world apart from the 'some of us won't be coming home' that you hear overseas. Some pedestal.

Although, not to mention that Fire departments make 100,000 plus a year working roughly 80 of those days per year and working full time construction jobs on the side,
low balling the other competitors out there because they have a full tme salary and can afford to cut corners. That seems pretty lucrative as well!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Although, not to mention that Fire departments make 100,000 plus a year working roughly 80 of those days per year and working full time construction jobs on the side,
low balling the other competitors out there because they have a full tme salary and can afford to cut corners. That seems pretty lucrative as well!

Lets not take this off-topic but they still do put in full time hours at their job.......in 24 increments hence leaving "days" off. I work 12 hour shifts, hence I have more "days off" than someone working 8 but I still work the same number of hours.

 

[peterpan]

Lets not take this off-topic but they still do put in full time hours at their job.......in 24 increments hence leaving "days" off. I work 12 hour shifts, hence I have more "days off" than someone working 8 but I still work the same number of hours.

Everyone loves firefighters. They save lives. They are strong and competent. They look good on calendars. People are always happy when they show up.

But municipalities do not love firefighters. Across Canada, towns and cities are getting hosed by the skyrocketing costs of their fire departments. Thanks to arbitration settlements, your firefighters are the best paid (and possibly the most underworked) guys in town. Firefighters have been getting raises that are twice as high what other public sector workers have been getting, at a time when municipalities are strapped for funds and raises are just a memory for most of us...............................There’s no good reason for salaries to go up so much, argues John Saunders, a consultant with Hicks Morley who advises dozens of municipalities. Firefighting is an extremely desirable job, and vacancies are scarce because people rarely quit. Last year, for example, there were more than 500 applicants for 20 firefighting jobs in the Ontario communities of Cambridge, Kitchener and Waterloo. In Cambridge, a first-class firefighter earns up to $99,397 a year, plus benefits and overtime. Yet despite the high demand for their jobs, firefighters get “retention” payments for not quitting. It’s long past time to roll back firefighting costs, as cities across the United States have been forced to do. But in Canada, costs continue to escalate as unions demand even better benefits, shorter work weeks and highly desirable 24-hour shifts. Firefighters love 24-hour shifts because it gives them plenty of time off for their other jobs. Theoretically, they’re required to work seven or eight of these shifts in a 28-day period, but workers with plenty of seniority can wind up working just five or six shifts, according to Mr. Saunders. Some critics refer to the 24-hour arrangement as “a well-paid part-time job.” (As for how it’s possible to work 24 hours in a row, the answer is “down time.”)

Not even the smallest effort to control costs goes unchallenged. In Windsor, the union grieved a decision to pull a fire truck out of service in 2008, saying that the administration had promised to leave it in service until the new contract was settled, which still hasn’t happened. The arbitrator sided with the union and told the city to cough up $381,000 in theoretically lost overtime – $1,328 for each member of the fire department. Meanwhile, in Toronto, the firefighters’ union continues its endless war against Emergency Medical Services, claiming that a decision to stop dispatching million-dollar pumpers to lower-level 911 calls puts lives at risk. A consultants’ report said that a merger of fire and EMS could save the city significant money – but the tribal warfare is so bitter that it will never happen.

GLOABE AND MAIL Aug. 2013
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/a-nation-of-100000-firefighters/article13647608/

Not trying to start a fight, but compared to some other places of employment, the military isn't soo hot (excuse the pun) Plus when the military are asked to saty late/come in early, wheres are overtime?

 

[mariomike]

Meanwhile, in Toronto, the firefighters’ union continues its endless war against Emergency Medical Services, claiming that a decision to stop dispatching million-dollar pumpers to lower-level 911 calls puts lives at risk. A consultants’ report said that a merger of fire and EMS could save the city significant money – but the tribal warfare is so bitter that it will never happen.

The highlighted part was discussed in the Emergency Services forum:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/111084.0.html

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I sense a topic split coming.

Not going to disagree with a word you said.......just wanted to point out the "hours" thing.
Not everyone loves FF's, heard a story just yesterday actually about one of those cities you mentioned where the local police "love" them so much they will sound the car siren everytime they drive by the station just to try and wake them up. I guess a little animosity has built up with the "just show up, look awesome, leave and go back to bed" attitude while the cops spend the night investigating.........awake.

Just a second hand story from a coworker who plays hockey with a bunch of them so I can't vouch 100% for authenticity.....

 

[The Bread Guy]

.... Not everyone loves FF's ....

I've also heard second-hand stories from "competitors" saying some fire services will send, say, two pumpers to an accident scene and count that as two calls.

If true as reported, you'd think fire safety and fire code progress is causing fewer fire-related calls coming in or something ....

That said, some progress is being made - here in Thunder Bay, some EMS sub-stations are being built as add-ons to fire stations.  Mind you, I don't know if there are doors connecting the two spaces, but baby steps.

 

[peterpan]

And don't get me wrong, I love FF, Police and EMS. and have some friends that work in all three jobs, very comendable and hard jobs to do. I was just making a point that a lot of ppl like to point the fingers at the Military  and talk about "how good" we have it, when thats not always the case.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

And don't get me wrong, I love FF, Police and EMS. and have some friends that work in all three jobs, very comendable and hard jobs to do. I was just making a point that a lot of ppl like to point the fingers at the Military  and talk about "how good" we have it, when thats not always the case.
[/quote

But it's fine if you do it the other way to FF's?

 

[Journeyman]

But it's fine if you do it the other way to FF's?

Note that even Bruce Monkhouse, who tends to be a pretty vocal supporter of unions, posted suggestions that the firefighters may have it pretty cushy, to the point of actively alienating fellow unionized services.  His sharing negative aspects should tell you something.  Perhaps if you'd put more effort into considering what had been posted than on your indignation you may have caught that.


This is clearly a tangent from the topic of veterans' benefits.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

..and I'll split it off when I get home. [my wifi stick is weak where I am right now]

Just a point to 'peterpan' about the Unions "demanding".  That's their job,...to demand and try and make things better, easier, more lucrative for their members.
I pay my union to try and make things better for me the same way you might hire a financial planner to make your retirement better.

You do know management sets the rules and if they're followed correctly a Union can't do much but go back to the member's and say "whoop's, sorry"?
Unions "set" no management rules.............

 

[Towards_the_gap]

I don't want to derail the thread any further, just want to say that not all of us FF's drive big new trucks and work half-rate construction jobs and take food from other workers tables and sleep all the time. My wife would laugh at the implication that we are rolling in money (we're not).

There is a silent majority who realise the benefits and compensation we receive demands 110% performance of our jobs and we try to go above and beyond that what is expected of us.

But back on thread..

What is the general thoughts on the quote by Robert Borden on the eve of Vimy? Does it constitute a 'verbal contract' contract of sorts. thereby binding upon the honour of the crown?

Namely this:

“You can go into this action feeling assured of this, and as the head of the government I give you this assurance: That you need not fear that the government and the country will fail to show just appreciation of your service to the country and Empire in what you are about to do and what you have already done.

“The government and the country will consider it their first duty to see that a proper appreciation of your effort and of your courage is brought to the notice of people at home that no man, whether he goes back or whether he remains in Flanders, will have just cause to reproach the government for having broken faith with the men who won and the men who died.”

 

[The Bread Guy]

What is the general thoughts on the quote by Robert Borden on the eve of Vimy? Does it constitute a 'verbal contract' contract of sorts. thereby binding upon the honour of the crown? ....

1)  It would be nice to see a similar quote, that clearly expressed, by any politician since Borden.
2)  That said, how binding are such statements when the Department of Justice says different?

 

[Towards_the_gap]

It's a shame really. I was lucky enough to return home in one piece, with only a minor battle injury in 11 years combined service.

Yet I can't help but feel that the government would gladly wipe it's ass with my service. And sadly it makes me a little sick to see all those yellow ribbons now on the streets of Ottawa.

I can only imagine how more seriously injured and disabled veterans must feel.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Never asked you for any,...I know, and knew, the score when I started.
I guess you happened to miss the post about all the workplace safety regs you folks are covered under.

Sure, when I joined, if I got hurt, there was a system in place to provide a lifelong pension so I was covered, as WSB, WCIB etc does not apply to us.  Then the govt of the day moved the goalposts and called it progress.

I've dealt with WCIB; they don't summarily reject all claims the first (and sometimes second) go around as a matter of practice.  VAC does this routinely and also has non medical personnel overrule doctors diagnosis (ie you showed up to basic with a torn meniscus and didn't report it until week 10).

Also, WSB goes right out the door as soon as you are operational; it has to, or we wouldn't get anything done.

So if you want people to voluntarily sign on to do dangerous and sometimes stupid sh*t across the globe in their grandfathers gear, then you should at the very least, provide them with the same level of care as the average working joe in Canada working a normal job.  While the previous levels of support may have been more generous then what you would get at a normal job, IMHO that is the cost of having a military.

I have no doubt that the politicians (in general) see us collectively as cheap points to score for getting reelected, and trot us out as appropriate to stand in front of a camera when it suits them, rather then provide any real tangible support.  I don't have any real doubt that I am more or less disposable , by and large, to the people sitting in Parliament and their backroom minions.

The reason I am personally still in uniform is to try and do what I can to keep people as safe as is practical from decisions made based on overly rosey evaluations of the technical state of our ships.  It's unfortunate, but have to try and look ahead at everything through the double lens of 'how would doing this help me be more employable on civvie street'.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

So if you want people to voluntarily sign on to do dangerous and sometimes stupid **** across the globe in their grandfathers gear, then you should at the very least, provide them with the same level of care as the average working joe in Canada working a normal job.  While the previous levels of support may have been more generous then what you would get at a normal job, IMHO that is the cost of having a military.

Hence the lawsuit which we were discussing.

 

[mad dog 2020]

Fire fighters are a very important aspect of any community and like life insurance it is great when the time comes and you need it, that being said our premiums are skyrocketing and out of control.
First there are 28 days in a cycle, with 24 hr shifts that's 168 hrs a month, or 4-40 hr standard weeks  with 8 hrs in the bank. Someone mentioned with seniority some work less than the standard 7. If you work your month and gain 8 hrs, I see that every 3 months you accumulate 24 hrs or a drop shift. Heaven forbid you have a sick day!
This whole concept is ridiculous but math wise you have to hire more staff if you work 3- 8 hour shifts. 
I know that my swimming pool was installed by a off duty shift of firefighters. So you want to talk union brotherhoods, this crew may be working under the table or if they bid for the job they can undercut anyone as they got a great benefit package already and are taking jobs from others.  I heard of other crews from Barrie that load Civics in the Honda plant in Alliston. Nuffield said no wonder there are plenty of applicants for any position.
Next, I remember I lived in Esquimalt and they had dual trained police/fire dept also heard there was another in St Theo??? PQ. So you are not ALL sitting in the hall just enough to drive the vehicle and if there is a fire certain police units are designated and have their gear in the trunk and just meet at the site.
I see fire trucks at the grocery store, Home Depot and driving around.
I dispute to run up stats, you have a 911 call and they ask police, fire or ambulance (note: amalgamated service) I have an injured person that needs a transport to emergency. POOF I got a fire truck, ambulance and too many people at the scene. I almost have to referee the fight over the victim for the call. Heck I declare a tie and like hockey you both get a point for yOur Stats come budget time, in some cases You get a police car so another point. It's a wonder roads and grounds don't show-up. Seriously we need them all and at times (night shift ) you can be stretched thin.
Never agreed for EMS to remain at the hospital, should be like a game of hot potato and once a triage and prioritize  and back in rotation.
Also one hall, three departments , one gym, change room, showers save some dough, heck you all race to the same calls. Just imagine the race out the bay doors.
Time to be realistic and use some common sense and not listen to the propaganda of the lobbyists.
We need the services and all emergency services are ver important but not to fleece the general public.

 

[Remius]

There was a discussion not long ago in Ontario about the rising costs of Police Officers.  One suggestion was having a two tiered force.  Tier 1 would be the police officers as we know them, tier 2 would be guys paid at say half the rate but would deal with traffic, crime scene security, fender bender calls, etc etc.  Basically enhanced by-law guys.

this would allow the tier one to do real police work, and tier two to do stuff we really shouldn't be paying expensive cops to be doing.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I've mentioned in other threads that the key "hammer" firefighters have vs. cops and EMS is that house (and, I'm guessing, business) insurance rates can be affected by how many fire halls/fighters are located how close to the house/business being insured.

This helps bring the public more onside when city hall talk turns to cutting fire service staff/stations.

 

[Ostrozac]

There was a discussion not long ago in Ontario about the rising costs of Police Officers.  One suggestion was having a two tiered force.  Tier 1 would be the police officers as we know them, tier 2 would be guys paid at say half the rate but would deal with traffic, crime scene security, fender bender calls, etc etc.  Basically enhanced by-law guys.

this would allow the tier one to do real police work, and tier two to do stuff we really shouldn't be paying expensive cops to be doing.

That sounds very similar to the model used in France, where there is a very clear distinction between "police administrative" (traffic, soccer riots) duties and "police judiciaire" (investigations, detective work) duties. Municipal police services are only permitted to do administrative work --  the national police services are authorized to perform both types of duties.

A two tier policing system like this, reserving your $80000 a year constables for investigating actual crimes and using $50000 a year constables for traffic might work quite well. Surely something has to be done to reign in policing costs.

 

[mariomike]

I see fire trucks at the grocery store, Home Depot and driving around.

Reminds me of an incident back in 2006 when a TFS pumper - with a full crew - was stolen from a Home Depot in Toronto.

CTV reported, "Police were in hot pursuit of the pumper truck, which was taken for a 45-minute joyride...".

The thief finally ditched it on Highway 27 North of Kleinburg.
http://www.firehouse.com/news/10499771/toronto-firefighters-reprimanded-for-allowing-pumper-theft

Surely something has to be done to reign in policing costs.

Something TPS ( and T-EMS ) had/has was Paid Duty. It did not show on the Sunshine List, because the money does not come directly out of the city treasury.

They have been trying to cut down on Paid Duty for years. But, unless they hire the required number of TPS officers and T-EMS Paramedics, they won't be issued a Special Event Permit ( or get shut down ).

Special Event permits are required for concerts, music festivals, block parties ( especially after Danzig ), street fairs, outside venues, athletic / sporting events, film shoots, parades, conferences and conventions etc.

They can only hire T-EMS Paramedics because they are the sole ambulance provider within the City of Toronto boundaries that is licensed to transport patients in an emergency situation (under the Ambulance Act of Ontario).
http://www.toronto.ca/special_events/pdf/emsbrochure.pdf

This whole concept is ridiculous but math wise you have to hire more staff if you work 3- 8 hour shifts. 

Why would that be?

My employer tried to put us back on 8's, or at least 10's, ( from 12's ) for years, but the union took it to arbitration and won.

( Prior to going on 24's a few years ago, TFS worked 10-hour day shifts, and 14-hour night shifts. My understanding is that the 14-hour nights - rather than simply 12-hour days and 12-hour nights - allowed them to keep their dormitories. )