Armd Recce Reserves on Deployment: Soldiers or Fillers

[Milkeyway]

Here's my issue. As a recce reservist on the next plane to AF, I noticed the following:
Reservist ->goes on Deployment as
======                ========
Navy                      Navy
Inf                          Inf
Arty                      Arty
CSS                      CSS
Medic                    Medic
Armd/Recce          CIMIC Dvr, HQ, GD, etc

As I understand, there is a plan on the works to bring in a complete Tp to AF on 07. How far this will go... we'll see. Where did we go wrong? Why do we allow this ("we" as in the people in high places that can make the diff) to happen? It is so frustrating to have to train for years and then do NOTHING remotely related to your trade. Why do we train???
1. We follow the BTS just like everyone else;
2. Our trade is needed;
3. We have the means to adapt if we are allowed to do so;
4. We have the numbers;
What is wrong? I can tell you what the problem is (or one of them). In a misconception, many believe that Armd Recce does not have any written doctrine but we do. Everything we train for and have been training for applies for overseas. Convoy escorts (BTS 4310C-D), OPs (1002D-F), Screens (T3002D), Dmnt ptls (T3004B-C), roadblocks/checkpoints (T5009C) and so on. So why don't we do it for real? Maybe It's because of lack of trg eqpt and trg grounds. As an Infantry soldier, I need a chunk of grass and off I go. Although OPs, Screens, Dmnt ptls and roadblock/checkpoints only need a chunk of grass as well, so what is the problem.
As stated in the beginning, there are "plans" to take a Tp overseas. I am really interested in knowing what they will be doing, how much will they actually be used for their true MOC or if they will end up backfilling the odd jobs.

 

[George Wallace]

First off:  Are you getting your info off of the "Rumour Net"?

Second:  From your profile, you should know why Armour Reservists don't do any Tours.  It is quite obvious to anyone in the Armour Community.

    1.    Not too many Armour Reservists, if any, are qualified to drive Coyote or LAV III;

    2.    Not too many Armour Reservists, if any, are qualified Coyote/LAV Gunner;

    3.    Not too many Armour Reservists, if any, are qualified Coyote/LAV Crew Commander;

    4.    Not too many Armour Reservists, if any, are qualified Surveillance Operator;

    5.    Not too many Armour Reservists are competant in using Vehicle Mounted TCCCs equipment and Fills; and

    6.    Not too many Armour Reservists have the Air Brake Crse as a current up to date qualification on their 404's.

So although you may think that wearing a Black Beret and running around on Exercise in a MilCot makes you a qualified Armour Soldier, enough to go off to Afghanistan to become King, then you are sadly mistaken.  Sadly there has been a large divide that has developed between Regular and Reserve Armour Skill Sets and that has been the reason.  Pure and Simple.  But you already know that and wanted to rant anyway.

 

[Milkeyway]

Gee... where to begin. Let's try your approach.

Fist off: You might want to actually read my post before trashing it. Nowhere in my post do I suggest that PRes Recce should even consider doing ANY of the Reg F jobs you mentioned. I even put in the BTS codes to prevent exactly this.
Convoy escorts (BTS 4310C-D), OPs (1002D-F), Screens (T3002D), Dmnt ptls (T3004B-C), roadblocks/checkpoints (T5009C)
And yes, wearing a Black Beret DOES make me a qualified recce soldier in Canada and anywhere the flag goes. I didn't spent the last 11 years getting qualified in not oly PRes courses but Reg F courses as well so I could sit on my rear.

Second:  From your profile, you should know why Armour Reservists don't do any Tours.  It is quite obvious to anyone in the Armour Community.

Second: I congratulate you on yoyr amazing powers of stating the obious. I know know Recce Res do not do tours... that's the WHOLE point of my post.
Let me colse again with the same sentence and hopefully some with insight (rather than sarcasm) will answer.
As stated in the beginning, there are "plans" to take a Tp overseas. I am really interested in knowing what they will be doing, how much will they actually be used for their true MOC or if they will end up backfilling the odd jobs.

 

[dapaterson]

A  statement of the blindingly obvious:

We send a force package overseas with its structure based on the anticipated requirement and anticipated threat.

That means that the structure will vary from TF to TF, from theatre to theatre.  It also means that the types of reserve augmentation required will vary from one TF to another.

Right now the black berets working in trade on tour are almost exclusively working in surveillance sqns.  That means that LAV driver, LAV gunner, and surveillance suite operations are the skillsets required.  As the number of LAVs in the Army Reserve equals zero, that means very limited augmentation from Reserve units.

But as the theatre evolves, or as other missions arise, that force employment structure may change.  If a larger number of recce personnel are reqr, there will be increased demand placed on the Reserve Force to support that deployment.  While there has been discussion of deploying formed recce troops from the Reserve force, there must first be a requirement for a recce troop to be deployed.

However, there is employment aval for a variety of reservists being employed outside their capbadge - be it as a driver, GD, HQ staff, CIMIC, PSYOPs or other possibilities.

Finally, without getting into nuts and bolts breakdowns by occupations in the Army Reserve, the number of soldiers from the Armour Branch deploying compared to the total population of Armoured soldiers is roughly equivalent to the ratios for the Infantry and Artillery.  If you want to go overseas sooner, become an engineer.  Or if you really can't wait, join the intelligence branch.

 

[Q.Y. Ranger]

I understand that most Reserves are not qualified to be part of a Coyote or LAV III crew in any way, but what about the new G-wagons? Wouldn't Recce Res. be qualified to use them for any type of recce task, or mounted patrol? Isn't that what these new vehicles were designed for?

Mike

 

[Love793]

I understand that most Reserves are not qualified to be part of a Coyote or LAV III crew in any way, but what about the new G-wagons? Wouldn't Recce Res. be qualified to use them for any type of recce task, or mounted patrol? Isn't that what these new vehicles were designed for?

Mike

This is what the rumoured TF 1-07 is supposed to include.  However the arguement will be and is, the majority of experience is in the Reg Force units (particularly in one trade), and therefore it would make more sense somehow to attach a modified India 60 to a Recce Sqn rather than to employ a light recce tp made up of reservists.  With some luck Commander TF 1-07 will win the argument, however I'm not going to hold my breath.

 

[armykat21]

well if the regs are getting burned out with doing tours why don't they start sending revs on the proper course so we can be deployed using are trade in a way thats more useful in theater

 

[George Wallace]

well if the regs are getting burned out with doing tours why don't they start sending revs on the proper course so we can be deployed using are trade in a way thats more useful in theater

OK.....I am not perfectly clear on what you were trying to say, but I may have the gist of it.

There is not enough time or money to qualify Regular Force Crewmen to fill the Coyote positions, so it is highly unlikely that they will start training Reservists on equipment that they may never ever use.

As discussed in another thread, if the CF were to convert Bisons into "Gun Vehicles" and use them for Convoy Escorts, then change the "Brick", we may see the opportunity for Reservists to go on Tour to conduct Mud Recce and Convoy Escort types of Tasks.  Until then, it still remains highly unlikely that they will go as part of Coyote Recce/Surv Troops, and be relegated to CIMIC and GD type tasks.

There is a serious divide in Skill Sets that has happened in the Armour Corps since the adoption of the Coyote.  Reservists now find it next to impossible to fill slots on Corps Taskings on ROTOs.

 

[GK .Dundas]

OK.....I am not perfectly clear on what you were trying to say, but I may have the gist of it.

There is not enough time or money to qualify Regular Force Crewmen to fill the Coyote positions, so it is highly unlikely that they will start training Reservists on equipment that they may never ever use.

As discussed in another thread, if the CF were to convert Bisons into "Gun Vehicles" and use them for Convoy Escorts, then change the "Brick", we may see the opportunity for Reservists to go on Tour to conduct Mud Recce and Convoy Escort types of Tasks.  Until then, it still remains highly unlikely that they will go as part of Coyote Recce/Surv Troops, and be relegated to CIMIC and GD type tasks.

There is a serious divide in Skill Sets that has happened in the Armour Corps since the adoption of the Coyote.  Reservists now find it next to impossible to fill slots on Corps Taskings on ROTOs.

And that as they say will turn around and bite us in the ass and probably sooner then later!

 

[Prd_Cdn]

WOW!
 Reading this tread, I wanted to throw my 2 cents in.

 I am a Coyote Driver Qualified. Myself and 4 others from my unit were on a full time course ran by the Strats in 2001. On a funny side note, the 5 of us, got the top 5 positions on the course out of 24 students. 6th and 7th positions were given to 2 guys from 1 Svc Bn, remaining went the Strathconas on my course. Since then we have a total of 15 pers qual to drive the coyote. Though how many regular force members are qual Gunner, Driver, C/C, Airbrakes, Operate TCCCS? Members of my unit have gone on tours with the Stathconas as Surv Ops to the former Yugoslavia. So I am unsure of the statement where "no reserves are qualified on the Coyote" came from.

 As a unit that was Armoured before going recce alot of us still hold qualifications as a Gunner on the Cougar which would ease the training into a Coyote. As far as I am told (Sgt/WO in the Reg F who are Coyote qual) that it wouldn't be much for us (Reserves) to convert/qual to Coyote Gunner.

 As for Crew Commanding, I would think that a person once qualified crew commanding is a crew commander? Map Reading, VP, Assigning Arcs, Attending Orders are the same regardless of duty whether full or part time. Isn't a 6A armoured still a qualified crew commander?

 Yes 25mm is a huge difference from 7.62mm not saying its not. Though gunnery is still gunnery and crew commanding is still crew commanding regardless of the platform being used. My C/C (cougar) and patrol commander (G-Wagon) course were taught by regular and reserve senior nco's with varying levels of experience.

 As for what could a Armoured Reservist to do overseas only comes down to this. What are we conducting? Are we conducting Div level ops with Cbt Teams? No we send a troop/sqn of coyotes as surv of an area or other Recce tasks. What are you to do with 250 (for example) Armoured Soldiers and only 24 slots to fill? No brainer there.

 Talking to members of my unit who are leaving for Afghanistan right now (x1 Sgt x4 MCpl x5 Cpl x2 Tpr). They are sad not to be doing an Armoured Trade task. They are happy to go non the less and are STILL willing to go for the experience only if to make them better soldiers as they wear the coveted black beret unlike the green one. They understand why they are not going as Armoured soldier and why the Engineers are going as Engineers, why Arty are going as Arty.

 The role of recce is simple "to obtain information in a timely manner on the enemy and terrain, passing it quickly to the commander". How do you do that? hmmm I do not know, CIMIC for example?

 Thank you all for reading this.  

 

[MPIKE]

recceguy!

I was reading the thread as you posted and I echo your thoughts.

This thread should be truthfully named "Armd Recce Reserves in the Armoured Corps:  Standins or Soldiers".  This goes alot farther than Konrad's original note on deployment to a "coveted" job in trade overseas.  I didnt read it as a stereotypical "JTF2 thread talking guy"  it was well stated not so much a rant but a great opener to a problem that is being ignored.

Sadly there has been a large divide that has developed between Regular and Reserve Armour Skill Sets and that has been the reason.  Pure and Simple

Yes this is something we all can recite over and over.  But what are the solutions?  Pure and simple things are worse than ever.  The reserves lack a credible platform or means to exist.  In the interim we try to appease units by giving them an "important" trial with ATVs to conduct recce and further see the degradation of armour skills.  It's good see others are also tired of being treated as the family's retarded cousin.
:

 

[R Stacey]

recceguy,
  here is a Link I refer to quite often when trying to keep up on current affaires effecting everyone in regards to procurement.  There is all sorts of info including the Bison which was purchased in the early 90's for the Reserves by the Reserves as an Inf Section carrier and was subsequently pulled back for use by the Regular Force due to Ops in the Balkans.





http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-0intro.htm

 

[George Wallace]

 I am a Coyote Driver Qualified. Myself and 4 others from my unit were on a full time course ran by the Strats in 2001. On a funny side note, the 5 of us, got the top 5 positions on the course out of 24 students. 6th and 7th positions were given to 2 guys from 1 Svc Bn, remaining went the Strathconas on my course. Since then we have a total of 15 pers qual to drive the coyote. Though how many regular force members are qual Gunner, Driver, C/C, Airbrakes, Operate TCCCS? Members of my unit have gone on tours with the Stathconas as Surv Ops to the former Yugoslavia. So I am unsure of the statement where "no reserves are qualified on the Coyote" came from.

Good for you.  I would appreciate that if you are going to quote me, you would at least quote the whole statement, not just that that suits your argument......how about continuing it with the "not many if any".  Big difference from none at all, as you allude.

 As a unit that was Armoured before going recce alot of us still hold qualifications as a Gunner on the Cougar which would ease the training into a Coyote. As far as I am told (Sgt/WO in the Reg F who are Coyote qual) that it wouldn't be much for us (Reserves) to convert/qual to Coyote Gunner.

Theory of Gunnery is the same no matter what Gunnery you will do.  Technique will be very similar in most cases.  Equipment will change.  So, yes it wouldn't be too hard to do.  Now to find time and money to train the Reg Force to standards and then follow on with the Reserves.

 As for Crew Commanding, I would think that a person once qualified crew commanding is a crew commander? Map Reading, VP, Assigning Arcs, Attending Orders are the same regardless of duty whether full or part time. Isn't a 6A armoured still a qualified crew commander?

 Yes 25mm is a huge difference from 7.62mm not saying its not. Though gunnery is still gunnery and crew commanding is still crew commanding regardless of the platform being used. My C/C (cougar) and patrol commander (G-Wagon) course were taught by regular and reserve senior nco's with varying levels of experience.

Unfortunately you are now wrong.  Many Reg Force Crew Commanders of Tank, Cougar, Coyote are now in a predicament where suddenly after being a CC for years, a decision was made that unless they have a DP3 XX Crse they can no longer Crew Command.  So, even if you have all the skill, without that piece of paper on your "I Love Me Wall" you are crap out of luck.

 As for what could a Armoured Reservist to do overseas only comes down to this. What are we conducting? Are we conducting Div level ops with Cbt Teams? No we send a troop/sqn of coyotes as surv of an area or other Recce tasks. What are you to do with 250 (for example) Armoured Soldiers and only 24 slots to fill? No brainer there.

I really didn't know there was much different from doing Recce Tasks in Div Level Ops with Cbt Teams to 'whatever'.  An OP is still an OP.  A Route Recce is still a Route Recce.  A Point Recce is still a Point Recce.  Etc. Etc.

   The role of recce is simple "to obtain information in a timely manner on the enemy and terrain, passing it quickly to the commander". How do you do that? hmmm I do not know, CIMIC for example?

In ISTAR, CIMIC is a valuable Recce/Info gathering tool.  So are AWACs, UAVs, Recce OPs, Inf Patrols, Air Force Recce flights, and many other info gathering sources too numerous to count.

Armour needs more money to bring all its' Regular and Reserve Soldiers up to snuff.  Armour needs the equipment to equip and train all its' soldiers, be they Reg or Res.  Armour needs its' 'Direction' re-established.  The 'New Army' has in fact neutered the Armour Corps.  Lack of funding to properly equip the Regs with enough Coyotes, the Reserves with equipment on par with, or even in lieu of, the Regs.  We don't even have enough Comms equipment to fully equip the Regs, let alone cascade it down to the Reserves.  The Armour Corps with all its' problems, has those problems compounded by even more serious problems facing the CF.  Maybe some senior person, like that old Dragoon CO I met at Tim Hortons over the Christmas in Ottawa, may open his eyes to the demise of the Corps and its' need for a 'transfusion' and rejuvenation.

 

[aesop081]

recceguy,
  here is a Link I refer to quite often when trying to keep up on current affaires effecting everyone in regards to procurement.  There is all sorts of info including the Bison which was purchased in the early 90's for the Reserves by the Reserves as an Inf Section carrier and was subsequntely pulled back for use by the Regular Force due to Ops in the Balkans.





http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-0intro.htm

Please tell me that you don't consider CASR/DND 101 an objective source of information ?

 

[DG-41]

As I've pointed out in other threads, the Reserves have proven pretty adaptable.

We were promised Coyote in '96/'97. A forward-thinking Reserve CO, aided (it appears) by people in high places at the Armour School, arranged to have all our drivers get Bison/Coyote conversion courses, and ARCON '96 was done on Bison. I had been trained on Iltis and M113, and aside from an unplanned ride in the back of one a few years earlier (another story for another day) had never been near them before. This was the case for a lot of the crews, save the drivers.

But after 10 days living in them in the field, everybody had pretty well adapted, and some were doing some amazing things with them. I saw guys hide Bisons in places that I *never* would have expected them to be able to hide a vehicle that size. The boys took a vehicle with which they had little to no familiarity, and turned it into an effective recce vehicle within a week.

Recce soldiers are, by definition, flexible and adaptable (independant of Regular and Reserve) Put them in an unforseen situation, and they'll run with it. Actually *train* them on the equipment, and they'll be that much stronger.

The Windsors transitioned from Sabre to Recce in '97, and I'm shocked and horrified that they didn't get Coyote gunnery, Coyote driving, and surv system operation courses as part of that transition. I came back after an eight year retirement to find that the only skills I had that had been superceded were operate TCCCS, operate CI, and operate PLUGR (all of which I picked up with a couple of home study courses) Nice for me that 95% of my skills were still current... but what does that say for the Corps, especially for the Reserves, when somebody can drop off the face of the earth for 8 years and nothing much has changed?

It's supposed to be a Total Force. That means that, even if you can't equip everyone on the sexy Gucci stuff, that you at least *train* them on the sexy Gucci stuff.

DG

 

[muskrat89]

OK - About 6 or 7 different Mods went over this thread, and gave it a good pruning, so we could move it back onto the board. Let's try and keep it on track..

 

[John Nayduk]

Alright, I guess it's time to put a target on my back.
I have heard that there is a RECCE platoon attached to the RECCE squadron for each tour in Afghanistan.  What extra skills do the infantry RECCE guys bring to the table that the reserve Armour guys couldn't bring (especially after the work up training that we will go through?  Just a question, not a knock on anyone.

 

[Q.Y. Ranger]

How long would it take to get qualified on a vehicle such as the Coyote? Wouldn't it be possible to extend a reservists work-up training, to incorporate the course, giving them the qualification to use it overseas? Or would it be to long and costly to do it? Just curious.

Mike

 

[R Stacey]

Alright, I guess it's time to put a target on my back.
I have heard that there is a RECCE platoon attached to the RECCE squadron for each tour in Afghanistan.  What extra skills do the infantry RECCE guys bring to the table that the reserve Armour guys couldn't bring (especially after the work up training that we will go through?  Just a question, not a knock on anyone.

How goes it "Another recce Guy"?  No need for the target on your back, I'm with you on having the Armoured Reserve community filling the Close Recce roll with in an Armoured Recce Sqn deployed.  Thought I would reply to this as I was the Recce Sqn Ops WO deployed Roto 2 Op ATHENA.  What you have heard is true we had a Close Recce Pl from the Light Inf Battalion in our Bde. Given the fact they were light and were thrust into the Close Recce roll they did an outstanding job and where able to provide capabilities that had not been employed before as this was the first kick at the cat.  What they (Inf Recce) brought to the table was a number of MCpl's and above working on their 4-5th Operational tour and allot of them going back for a second time to the Stan.  The majority of them were Mountain Ops Qualified and had extensive HEL Ops/Jump experience which provided the Bde/Sqn Commander a great deal of flexibility.  Their short/long dismounted patrolling capabilities were second to none and they proved this time and time again while on tour.  I believe they (Inf Recce) will continue to deploy a Close Recce capability within a Recce Sqn given the flexibility it gives Commanders in Open and Close terrain, as well as the expertise they bring to the table for a long time to come.  In regards to Armoured reserves filling the Close Recce role within a Recce Sqn deployed I am all for it as long as the Tp is formed early enough and intergrated into the Sqn well before Trg commences, understanding the experience level at the end of the day will still not match that of an Inf Close Recce Pl.  Based on my experiences with Reserves I have a solid understanding of the challenges faced early on and that the learning curve will be quite high for some but not all Soldiers.  In my opinion at the end of the day as long as the trg was successful and all of the standards have been met based on the BTS, and the Tp is tight  I would have no probs working with an Armoured Reserve Close Recce Tp deployed operationally.

Its time the Black hats started looking after the Black Hats.

The Corps

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Thank you Hedgehog. That's all we've been asking for is a chance. Finally, someone who understands we're not after Coyote jobs, but to expand and use the skill set we already possess from doing "Mud Recce".