• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Armor/Armour - Comparisons between USA and CA Terminologies/Positions

Red 6

Sr. Member
Inactive
Reaction score
0
Points
210
Boy, it sure was. I heard somewhere that Reforger 88 was the biggest one ever. In 92, my battalion deployed from Ft Riley to Reforger and we were the ONLY stateside unit to take part. It was just a shadow of the big Reforgers in the 80's.

Hey TCBF, and some others, help me out here. In the US Army cavalry, we have the the following organization:

scout squad/tank crew
section
platoon
troop
squadron
regiment

How does it break down in the Canadian Army?

Is a troop warrant officer like a platoon sergeant, or a troop first sergeant?

Thanks for the intel in advance.
 
Red 6:

vehicle crew - commanded by a Master Corporal or higher
troop - 4 x tanks or 5 - 7 reconnaissance vehicles (depending on time/orbat), commanded by a Lt, second-in-command is a Warrant Officer (=SSgt in the USA)
squadron - 19 x tanks (old orbat) or 15+ reconnaissance vehicles with a headquarters (depending on time/orbat), commanded by a Major
regiment - 3 or 4 x squadrons, with regimental HQ, commanded by a Lieutenant Colonel

I should note that both the tank and reconnaissance squadron organization is shifting all the time.  A reconnaissance troop will have anywhere from five to seven vehicles and we've recently been using three-tank troops.  I'm desk-borne right now, so others may have more definitive intel for you, but these will get the basics down.

Hope this helps,

Teddy
 
Thanks fpor the intel, Teddy. Iy looks like we use the same words, just for different echelons in the structure.
 
I'd always been under the impression our enlisted ranks were comparable as follows;

CANADA            US
Pte. (no hook)  Pte.
Pte. (w/ hook)  PFC
Cpl.                  Cpl.
MCpl.              Sgt.
Sgt.                SSgt.
WO                TSgt.
MWO              FSgt.
CWO              MSgt.

I never would have said a US Staff Sergeant is equivalent to our Warrant Officer.  The US Army Technical Sergeant is (in my opinion) the rank equivalent of our Warrant Officer. 

Regards

 
Just to add to Teddy:

Crew - Call Sign
Recce Patrol - 2 X C/S
Recce Troop - 5 to 7 (usually) C/S  (Regimental Recce Troop is usually 11 C/S)
Tank Troop - 4 C/S  (always travel in pairs.)

3 to 4 Recce Troops to a Recce Sqn (Once was 3 Recce + 1 Assault Troop or 4 Recce Troops)
4 Tank Troops to a Tank Sqn  (Tank Sqns sometimes get split into 'Half Sqns'.)

Usually 4 (Sabre) Sqns in a Regt.  HQ (Adm) Sqn makes 5, and RHQ is usually approx Sqn strength.

Armour seem to work on Fours, where Infantry seem to work on Threes.
 
reccecrewman said:
I'd always been under the impression our enlisted ranks were comparable as follows;

CANADA            US
Pte. (no hook)  Pte.
Pte. (w/ hook)  PFC
Cpl.                  Cpl.
MCpl.              Sgt.
Sgt.                SSgt.
WO                TSgt.
MWO              FSgt.
CWO              MSgt.

I never would have said a US Staff Sergeant is equivalent to our Warrant Officer.  The US Army Technical Sergeant is (in my opinion) the rank equivalent of our Warrant Officer. 

Regards

Meh, I'll admit to being too lazy to look it up when I posted.  A Canadian WO is equivalent to a British SSgt (NATO OR7).  According to the NATO chart, the Canadian WO = OR 7 = US Sgt First Class.

Cheers,
 
US ranks go like this. I've also listed some of the common duty positions that go with each rank:

Private                                                                        Observer/Loader
Private First Class                                                        Observer/Loader
Specialist/Corporal                                                        Driver/Team Leader
Sergeant                                                                      Gunner
Staff Sergeant                                                              Bradley/Tank Commander/Squad Leader
Sergeant First Class                                                      Platoon Sergeant
First Sergeant/Master Sergeant                                    Co or Troop 1stSgt/Operations Sergeant
Sergeant Major/Command Sergeant Major                    Operations SgtMaj/Squadron or Battalion Sergeant Major
 
US ranks go like this. I've also listed some of the common duty positions that go with each rank:
                                                                    USA                                                                                           CA

Private                                               Observer/Loader                                      (Pte) Observer/Loader/Operator/Gunner/Driver(untrained - on Crse) 
       
Private First Class                                 Observer/Loader                                      (Tpr) Observer/Loader/Operator/Gunner/Driver 

Specialist/Corporal                                Driver/Team Leader                                  (Cpl) Observer/Loader/Operator/Gunner/Driver

Sergeant                                            Gunner                                                   (MCpl) Crew Commander/Operator (Gunner/Dvr/Observer on Command Tk)/Tp MCpl

Staff Sergeant                                     Bradley/Tank Commander/Squad Leader       (Sgt) Crew Commander (Gunner/Operator on Command Tk)Tp Sgt/Adm Sgt/SQMS/Tpt Sgt

Sergeant First Class                              Platoon Sergeant                                     (WO) Troop Warrant/Troop Leader/SQMS/Ops WO/Tpt WO/Tpt O 

First Sergeant/Master Sergeant              Co or Troop 1stSgt/Operations Sergeant       (MWO) SSM/TQMS

Sergeant Major/Command Sergeant Major      Operations SgtMaj/Squadron or Battalion Sergeant Major       (CWO)  RSM/TQMS
 
Thanks for the intel, George. It looks likw we all do basically the same things with just a little difference in terminology. In the US Army, every mech, cavalry and armor unit has an NCO slotted as the master gunner. At the troop/company level, he's a tank commander with the additional duty for MG. At bn/sqdn, he's an SFC who works in the S-3 shop (Operations & training). I know there's an MG at brigade & division level, but don't know for sure what his rank is. The MG is the gunnery guru for his unit. At the higher levels, he plans gunnery related training, locks on ranges, develops gunnery matrixes, and stuff like that. Do you have a similar program in the Canadian Army?

 
We have the same thing in each Armour Regiment.  He is the RGWO (Regt'l Gnry WO) and he is the Regiment's Gunnery God, doing much of, if not all the same, as your Master Gunner.  He usually has had the Master Gunner Crse, which is not restricted to Armour, and was originally an Arty orientated/run Crse.  There is a Thread on the Master Gunnery Crse, which now has been updated and renamed.  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/1552.0.html

The RGWO is usually in RHQ and quite often the CO's Operator/Loader in a Tank, or his Operator/Gunner in a LAV III.  The CO sometimes takes the Regt'l Ops WO as Operator instead, although his (Regt'l Ops WO) position is usually in command of the Alt CP.
 
Although it has been an informative page, I think we've steered way off course on the orginal thread.  Perhaps a new thread on "US/Canadian Army conversions" or something of the sort should be opened.  In any event, we should try to steer this one back onto it's orginal topic.

Regards
 
Done, and there are a lot of differences and similarities to be covered.  As we have already seen there are drastic differences in what responsibilities or qualifications the different ranks hold/obtain.  Organizations are sometimes similar, but named differently.  Troops in the USA are sometimes Sqns in the CA.  There are drastic differences in the qualifications that soldiers attain through their careers.  The Regimental Systems are also different.  Tactics are different.  There are many differences, and many similarities......in the end they all are "Muscleheads", "Trackheads", "Zipperheads", "Tankers", "Recce/Recon Troopers", "CAV Troopers", etc. who hold a common bond.
 
Death Before Dismount!

Here are some of my observations about armored cavalry in the US Army:

1) The cavalry force has heavy firepower pushed forward. Doctrine says that in the advance, the recon element will push thru enemy resistance if possible. If you encounter enemy in sector during a zone or route recon, you have three options, hasty attack, bypass, or hasty D. Depending on whether or not it's screening for the main effort, a scout platoon may have a dedicated battery op-conned to it.

2) The battalion scout platoon in the defense screens to the front of the main trace. is tasked with locating and destroying enemy recon elements that penetrate into sector. Often, a tank platoon from one of the line companies will be chopped to the scouts for support. Esp at night, the scout platoon leader has on call fires dedicated to the platoon. When the enemy forward security element comes into sector, the scouts move to flanking positions and engage with long range TOW fire as the FSE moves into the task force Engagement Area.

2) We did most of our work mounted. Although it wasn't unusual to dismount, it was the exception rather than the rule in the attack. As a general rule. we practiced for three specific recon missions:

zone recon: recon in sector across the task force frontage in the advance. Generally, one scout section would run the left limit and the the other the right limit. The command section would pick up slack in the center.

route recon: An identified avenue of advance (road, cross country, etc). Dependent on what the mission was, we could do a route analysis, or just move along the route and clear during movement.

area recon: a specific location that needed eyes on the objective. This sort of recon was most likely to put boots on the ground.

3) Gunnery, esp. in Bradley equipped units, is THE end all-be all. Cavalry uses the wingman concept religiously. Army doctrine stressed all the time that we "fought for intel." PIR's were hammered home in the Op Order and it was scouts' job to make sure they were understood and acted upon.

4) In the defense, each scout section was usually assigned to overwatch an avenue into the task force engagement area. If the sector was broken and terrain prevented establishment of a TF E/A, a scout section could be chopped directly to the line company.

5) We drilled on templates that showed how Soviet/Russian trained armies were expected to fight the heavy force battle. At the combat training centers, this is still the centerpiece of the battle. I can still close my eyes and recall how a Moroized Rifle Regiment conducts the attack.

Well, this is a good start, and it brings back a lot of memories. It's amazing how military stuff sticks in your brain housing group. even years after the fact. I'm interested to hear how ya'll fight the cavalry battle and a little about your techniques, esp from the old days of the Cold War era. I'm sure a lot here have read Kenneth Macksey's book First Clash. I bought a copy at the Stars and Stripes book store in Graf about 20-some years ago and it's still on my book shelf. Also, my troop bought every copy of Team Yankee when it first came out in paperback. The copies got passed around until they all fell apart pretty much.
 
George Wallace said:
We have the same thing in each Armour Regiment.  He is the RGWO (Regt'l Gnry WO) and he is the Regiment's Gunnery God, doing much of, if not all the same, as your Master Gunner.  He usually has had the Master Gunner Crse, which is not restricted to Armour, and was originally an Arty orientated/run Crse.  There is a Thread on the Master Gunnery Crse, which now has been updated and renamed.  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/1552.0.html

The RGWO is usually in RHQ and quite often the CO's Operator/Loader in a Tank, or his Operator/Gunner in a LAV III.  The CO sometimes takes the Regt'l Ops WO as Operator instead, although his (Regt'l Ops WO) position is usually in command of the Alt CP.

Roger that. It's similar in the US Army. The troop/company MG (who is spoken of as the "Mike Golf") is a TC in one of the line platoons, so MG is an additonal duty. The Bn/Sqdn CO has the Bn/Sqdn MG assigned to his track, almost always as the gunner. The mission of the MG at gunnery is "to make the old man look good."
 
Death Before Dismount!

Common feelings. 

Recce Sqns were a Bde Resource.  We were not heavily armed, with only a .50 M2 mounted in a 20mm gun mount (making it an excellent sniper wpn when properly sighted in.), a 7.62 C5 GPMG, and then our pers wpns (9mm SMGs).  That being the case, we did not fight for info.

If we were lucky we would have Golf in support.  If we were really lucky we had Tac Hel attached. 

We would expect 90% casualties in crossing the start line, and then operate approx 40 Km in the enemies rear, usually in OPs.

We also did the Area, Zone and Route Recces.  Other tasks could have been Flank Guards, Rear Area Security and Immediate Reaction Force against Para/Airborne insertions, TCPs, etc.

Tanks were seldom in support of Recce, with the exception of Regimental HQ Recce Troop (Call Sign 60).  Usually the Tank Sqns were in Cbt Teams with their 'affilliated' Inf Coys.
 
Back in the day, George, where was your outfit's GDP sector? Mine (2nd Squadron, 11th ACR) was on the north shoulder of the Meiningen Gap.
 
Red 6 said:
Back in the day, George, where was your outfit's GDP sector? Mine (2nd Squadron, 11th ACR) was on the north shoulder of the Meiningen Gap.

A little late, but I missed this one, way back when.

We were Reserve.  That meant, more or less, we were immediately commited to the fill the first holes that would have been punched through.  We probably also had the worry of Rear Area Security, as the Spetnaz were anticipated to drop into France and take out their nuke sites to our rear. 

Most of the time on Reforger we were playing in the V and VII Corps areas.
 
Back
Top