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Armor Controversy

tomahawk6

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There is a battle between the Army vs the manufacturer of dragonskin body armor. The Army will be opening the coming test to all manufacturers. Even if dragonskin is superior its far heavier than the IBA the Army issues to all troops. The infantryman doesnt need more weight to carry around.

http://www.armytimes.com/issues/stories/0-ARMYPAPER-2800557.php
 
More "weight?"  ::) we were talking about this on the range the other day, I can take the weight, but it is the knee pads, neck guard, throat protector, elbow bads, sun glasses and gloves that screw you over more.  I am also going to say the only time I use my plates are when they are stuffed in my ruck and am doing a road march.  With all the extra gear, the weight is the least of my worries. 

Take care, Can-Am
 
Not wearing the plates ? Sounds like you have a death wish not to mention a violation of policy.
 
tomahawk6 said:
Not wearing the plates ? Sounds like you have a death wish not to mention a violation of policy.

There is no death wish here, just the desire to be comfortable and move to protect myself and others. Take care Can-Am
 
There is a battle between the Army vs the manufacturer of dragonskin body armor.
Seems that the Army is not the only one who has problems with Dragon Skin's manufacturer.


Ban considered on Dragon Skin maker
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/06/airforce_pinnacleban_070612a/
Staff report Posted : Tuesday Jun 12, 2007 11:05:14 EDT
 
Air Force Materiel Command recommended Friday that the Air Force bar Pinnacle Armor Inc., the maker of Dragon Skin body armor, from signing new contracts with the U.S. government, CongressDaily reported.

Headquarters Air Force will review the recommendation and decide on a potential ban within several weeks, the report said.

The recommendation comes just days after it was revealed that the Air Force Office of Special Investigations is investigating the California-based manufacturer on allegations that it falsely claimed Dragon Skin vests were certified to a level of protection they did not possess.

Pinnacle has denied any wrongdoing.

OSI contracted to buy 590 Dragon Skin vests based on literature from and claims by the company, Douglas Thomas, executive director of OSI, testified June 6 on Capitol Hill.

The vests were delivered and fielded between October 2005 and January 2006 to deployed and deploying OSI agents, Thomas said.

Dragon Skin subsequently failed two tests conducted by the Air Force.


“In February 2006, we issued a stop order/immediate discontinue message to all our personnel, which basically says stop using them ... and send them back to headquarters,” said Capt. Christine Millette, an OSI spokeswoman.

On May 11, 2006, OSI received verification from the National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center that the type of Dragon Skin vests the Air Force purchased had not been tested or certified to National Institute of Justice standards, Thomas said.

“That was a big surprise because that’s one of the reasons we purchased the vests,” he said, adding that the vests received by OSI were clearly and falsely marked NIJ Level III.


“In May 2006, OSI opened a joint criminal investigation with [Defense Criminal Investigative Service] for false [National Institute of Justice] certification on the vest and false representation of its capabilities,” Thomas said. “In June 2006, we tested the vest again. It failed.”

The claim made by Pinnacle “is a serious fraudulent claim,” said Lt. Gen. Ross Thompson, military deputy to the assistant secretary of the Army for acquisition, logistics and technology.

Meanwhile, military officials, lawmakers and industry professionals continue to debate whether Pinnacle’s vests outperform the military’s Interceptor armor.

Murray Neal, chief executive officer of Pinnacle, joined Thomas, Thompson and representatives from the other services June 6 in front of the House Armed Services Committee. Rep. Ike Skelton, D-Mo., the committee chairman, questioned Pinnacle about its claim, which was placed on the vests and dated April 14, 2006.

“I have in front of me a later letter from the Department of Justice dated Dec. 20, 2006,” Skelton said. “What I find to be interesting is that this attachment to the [body armor] is dated April 14, 2006, and the actual certification is Dec. 20, 2006. ... this is a serious discrepancy of making an assertion months before it actually came to pass.”

NIJ has a body armor testing program to “enhance the confidence of public safety agencies and officers,” said Jonathan Morgan, deputy director of the institute.

Pinnacle has submitted seven models of Dragon Skin-based armor to NIJ since May 2006, Morgan said. The company resubmitted two of the seven models after inconclusive results. Of those nine submissions, five failed to comply with NIJ standards, one passed, two were found to be inconclusive and one is pending, Morgan said.

The Army will test Dragon Skin vests — along with products from any other bidder — if the company submits its product to a request for proposals that’s open until late July, Thompson said. The Army will look at any offers from manufacturers who believe they can improve on the enhanced small-arms protective inserts and enhanced side ballistic inserts now worn by soldiers, Thompson said.

Neal said all he wants is a fair test for his product.

“The bottom line for me ... is that Dragon Skin has been verified as the best body armor in the world,” he testified. “Therefore, all we ask is for a third-party independent testing of Dragon Skin at a facility that has Office of the Secretary of Defense and Department of Testing and Evaluation oversight.”

Lawmakers grilled Neal and Philip Coyle, a senior adviser at the Center for Defense Information, about a test, commissioned by NBC TV, that the news agency said shows Dragon Skin is superior to the Interceptor armor being worn in combat. Coyle served as a witness for the NBC test.

The NBC report, which aired May 20, prompted lawmakers to call the hearing, which included witnesses from the Army, Marine Corps, Air Force and Navy.

Lawmakers called for another test to put the Dragon Skin-Interceptor debate to rest, but they did not seem convinced by Neal’s testimony. They spent more than three hours questioning him about the ability of Dragon Skin, and his assertions that a May 2006 Army test of his product was manipulated to favor Interceptor.

Coyle wasn’t spared, either. After testifying that the NBC test clearly showed Dragon Skin was superior to Interceptor, Coyle conceded, after being questioned repeatedly by Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif., the committee’s ranking member, that Dragon Skin is “not ready for prime time.”

The Army — along with the other services — stands by Interceptor and the May 2006 Army test that showed Interceptor outperforming Dragon Skin, he said.

“Before the testing was halted, the Dragon Skin vest suffered 13 of 48 first- or second-round shot complete penetrations, failing four of eight initial subtests,” Thompson said. “The bottom line is that the Dragon Skin vest did not stop the bullets.”
 
Navy latest service to ban outside body armor
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/06/navy_armor_ban_070615w/  (more at link)
By Andrew Scutro - Staff writer  Posted : Friday Jun 15, 2007 10:45:40 EDT
 
The Navy has become the latest American armed service to ban the use of off-the-shelf body armor, a move that acknowledges the thousands of sailors serving ashore in the Middle East.

Military personnel serving in Iraq and Afghanistan have been supplementing their standard-issue gear with commercially available equipment like gloves, web gear and in some cases, commercially available body armor.

The new Navy policy was drafted to align with a Marine Corps policy released in April. The Army issued similar rules in March 2006 after concerns were raised that some soldiers were buying commercially available body armor they believed to be better than the government-issue variety.

Under the Navy policy released June 8, commercially available protective gear cannot be worn ‘in lieu of” issued personal protective equipment. However, it can be worn “in addition to” issued gear with a commander’s permission.

Under the policy definition, personal protective equipment includes “body armor, helmets, goggles, clothing and other gear designed to protect the wearer’s body from battlefield injuries.”  .....


The policy also states that commands cannot reimburse sailors for equipment they buy on their own. Likewise, commands are not to use unit money to buy any commercial protective equipment that has “not been approved for use by the Navy.”

Under a previous Marine policy, some the cost of some such gear was reimbursable.

 
 
Results of the army's May 2006 tests (PDF format):

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/files/dragon_skin_release_000121may07.pdf
 
one cannot ignore the politics behind the scenes.  contracts, political influence, and budgets all play a key role in deciding what gets purchased, and what doesn't.  "safety" for troops is low down on the list.

sick.

r
 
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