Army commander vows to issue special order to weed out extremists in the ranks

[brihard]

Towards the end on my career, a number of guys committed career suicide via social media.

Yup, this is an increasing phenomenon for sure.

 

[Donald H]

It's funny that folks are eager to put "mainstream media" as "left of centre."  Perhaps the problem is where folks are choosing to put centre of mass.

You nailed it! The US has moved right and tradionally the rest of the world would recognize that which they try to define as the middle of the political spectrum as correct.

But it's no longer correct and now Canada and the world's other leading capitalist democracies are defining the middle. I see this as more and more big problems for the Nato alliance if Trump is re-elected. Already trouble is brewing in European countries, vis a vis Iran and the situation with Turkey.

 

[Jarnhamar]

That isn't a political ideology, that is a personal attitude that they are good to go and everyone else is incompetent.  Most of the times this isn't matched by reality - in fact it is generally the other way around.

Right. Not a political ideology. I wonder how many of our white supremacist losers view it as a legitimate political type movement and how many just get off on being assholes. The same way people got off on the cpl bloggins shit.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I wonder if our soldiers deployed to Europe inadvertently cross paths with neo-nazis or white supremacist units when we train with other European countries.

And if they do and it's obvious, what our SOPs are. I would imagine since we're issuing special orders to weed out extremists in our own ranks we will flat out refuse to operate along side with or especially train extremists over there.

 

[blacktriangle]

Brihard said it better than I above.

Why would someone who feels the state is corrupt, oppressive and/or racist join the one organization of the state that has a monopoly on violence?

Very well said. It's more likely that extremists on the right would gravitate towards organizations such as the CAF. Perhaps this would apply to LE as well, not sure.

If I was a police officer, I'd be concerned about getting in a gun fight with a right wing extremist (lone wolf, maybe small group) - but I'd also be concerned about mass social unrest and people that want to burn society to the ground.

As a former CAF member now enjoying civilian life, who owns property, has a spouse and elderly parents...I'm most worried about unrest/revolution/mass violence. I will let people make their own assumptions about which side of the political spectrum I'm concerned about in that respect.

:2c:

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Why would someone who feels the state is corrupt, oppressive and/or racist join the one organization of the state that has a monopoly on violence?

They don't, of course.  Leftists don't join the armed and police forces of the middle-ist state they are trying to overthrow; they overthrow it and then staff the armed and police forces of their own.

 

[Donald H]

Very well said. It's more likely that extremists on the right would gravitate towards organizations such as the CAF. Perhaps this would apply to LE as well, not sure.

If I was a police officer, I'd be concerned about getting in a gun fight with a right wing extremist (lone wolf, maybe small group) - but I'd also be concerned about mass social unrest and people that want to burn society to the ground.

As a former CAF member now enjoying civilian life, who owns property, has a spouse and elderly parents...I'm most worried about unrest/revolution/mass violence. I will let people make their own assumptions about which side of the political spectrum I'm concerned about in that respect.

:2c:

I'll make the assumption you've suggested. In America it could be hotly debated on which side to be most concerned about.

But this is Canada so where's the concern?

 

[Navy_Pete]

It's funny that folks are eager to put "mainstream media" as "left of centre."  Perhaps the problem is where folks are choosing to put centre of mass.

We do not have a "far left extremism" problem in the CAF, and I've yet to see a case where "growth of antifa ideology/communist viewpoints/etc/etc threatens the good order and discipline of the CAF."  Those of you twisting your underwear in a knot here are just creating a red herring. 

However, we do have specific cases of members identifying with nativist/supremist ideologies.  And there are enough serious case studies in the ranks of our allies to cause concern.  The recent incidents and trends in the U.S. and German Armed Forces give us good understanding as to where this can lead if left unchecked by leadership.

Also, we don't need any new tools to deal with the existing issue of possible nazi/supremacist type ideologies, and really nothing stopping anyone from applying it to personnel that are found to be extremists anywhere on the spectrum that are causing a problem.

No one is saying we are protecting antifa or whomever just that there is a known issue of right wing extremists deliberately looking to infiltrate police/military forces, and we need to kick it in the teeth.

Not really sure what is wrong with being anti fascist though; the CAF was a big part of that from 1939-1945 which we memorialize every year, and anyone who enjoys personal liberties and freedoms should be inherently against fascism as well as racism, so I think it's probably important to separate a general belief that Nazis are bad with violent extremism. 

 

[mariomike]

Not really sure what is wrong with being anti fascist though; the CAF was a big part of that from 1939-1945 which we memorialize every year, and anyone who enjoys personal liberties and freedoms should be inherently against fascism as well as racism, so I think it's probably important to separate a general belief that Nazis are bad with violent extremism.

I'm not really sure either. Other than constantly reading antifa this and antifa that on here.

I've always been proud that my father, and my mother's father, fought overseas for Canada ( Navy and Army respectively ) in WW2. Especially of an uncle in the RCAF who never made it back to Canada and is interred in France.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Also, we don't need any new tools to deal with the existing issue of possible nazi/supremacist type ideologies, and really nothing stopping anyone from applying it to personnel that are found to be extremists anywhere on the spectrum that are causing a problem.

No one is saying we are protecting antifa or whomever just that there is a known issue of right wing extremists deliberately looking to infiltrate police/military forces, and we need to kick it in the teeth.

Not really sure what is wrong with being anti fascist though; the CAF was a big part of that from 1939-1945 which we memorialize every year, and anyone who enjoys personal liberties and freedoms should be inherently against fascism as well as racism, so I think it's probably important to separate a general belief that Nazis are bad with violent extremism.

Maybe because these days anything to the right of Groucho Marx is labelled a nazi and a fascist? Also that monuments to those guys who went over there and did the deed are vandalized and defaced by today’s current group of anti fascists?

 

[MJP]

Regarding releasing these individuals from CAF, procedural fairness, due process, etc... There's a different standard applied to terminating employment than there is to being charged with an offense.  It's very much in CAF's (and arguably Canada's) interest to be able to efficiently release people from military service who don't serve the unique needs thereof, or who are otherwise an undue liability or administrative burden. The courts have tested the administrative release process, and it holds up. Given the real security concerns attendant to people who have extremist political views of any bent, I think it's necessary and appropriate that the upper chain of command support and champion efforts to clear the ranks of those with an ethos contradictory to what the military requires. Bear in mind that any further obstacle to releasing these members who apply equally to those we might categorize as '****birds', the guys who all have known and worked with who just shouldn't be in but have somehow not quite yet managed to get kicked out. These are still individuals that take up positions, that create administrative burdens, and that harm the efficiency and effectiveness of the total force. Some greater degree of protection of extremists from the consequences of their choices would also extend protections to all of these other individuals. Just bear that in mind. Any employer, generally speaking, can with sufficient documentation properly articulate and defend the termination of employment of someone who is known to espouse and/or act on views contrary to the employers principles and ethics. CAF is really no different, although a CAF member gets considerably more bureaucratic protection than employees for many other organizations would see.

Correct.  And people who whine that "Admin Measures" are another form of punishment need to understand this.

Break the law (Code of Service Discipline) - military justice system
Conduct does not meet the bar set by policy and regulations - administrative measures
Performance does not meet the bar set by policy and regulations - administrative measures

Three distinct things, and a combination of the first and either of the latter two may be required in some cases.

Well said Brihard and Infanteer! Part of the issue is many CoCs don't fully understand the process, are given faulty advice regarding the process or have their own views/interpretations that they imposed on the process.  The one thing with the process in my opinion is it is almost too slow and procedurally fair. We take an incredible amount of time and energy to remove someone that would have been fired in any other job 

 

[Donald H]

Maybe because these days anything to the right of Groucho Marx is labelled a nazi and a fascist? Also that monuments to those guys who went over there and did the deed are vandalized and defaced by today’s current group of anti fascists?

This incident? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/17/canada-nazi-monument-vandalism-hate-crime

If not then were there other instances? I'm asking because I want to search out just who was responsible. My question only applies to Canada of course.

 

[brihard]

So now that I’ve been out for a bit, are any ‘new tools’ actually being developed and deployed on this? Or is this merely firm direction from on high to apply the tools and procedures that exist, and to curb leniency on this particular category of behaviour?

 

[MJP]

So now that I’ve been out for a bit, are any ‘new tools’ actually being developed and deployed on this? Or is this merely firm direction from on high to apply the tools and procedures that exist, and to curb leniency on this particular category of behaviour?

There is a tracking tool for Operation HONOUR breaches which can be readily adapted for really anything misconduct, that might be worthwhile to do as long as they make the instructions better as it is still a bit unwieldy (see also Monitor Mass).

The actual AR process is still owned by Director Military Careers Administration 2 (DMCA 2) and the admin policy hasn't changed. Really the speed a case is adjudicated is directly related to the amount of command pressure or imperative due to seriousness of the incident to push the file within the bounds of procedural fairness. My experience is that often the slow nature of the cases stems from the units themselves who are slow at requesting an AR (along with proper supporting documentation) or they misunderstand or forget steps of the admin process along the way. 

 

[Haggis]

Towards the end on my career, a number of guys committed career suicide via social media.

A little over half of the terminations for cause in my agency last year (not including recruits still on probation) were the result of social media posts.

 

[Haggis]

Correct.  And people who whine that "Admin Measures" are another form of punishment need to understand this.

Break the law (Code of Service Discipline) - military justice system
Conduct does not meet the bar set by policy and regulations - administrative measures
Performance does not meet the bar set by policy and regulations - administrative measures

Three distinct things, and a combination of the first and either of the latter two may be required in some cases.

In many cases this well explained distinction only becomes apparent later in one's career when one begins to deliver administrative sanctions to their subordinates.

From a soldier's perspective, whether an AR, RM, CM or ST you're either in sh*t or you're not.

 

[mariomike]

A little over half of the terminations for cause in my agency last year (not including recruits still on probation) were the result of social media posts.

The three I'm thinking of were let go over some light-hearted banter with each other quoting a couple of TV shows: The Office and South Park.

 

[shawn5o]

If i may relate to these quotes

Many of the cases to date have been dealt with quietly through the military's administrative and disciplinary process — but Kirzner-Roberts said it's clear from the Myggland case that a "safe space" has been created for racism and intolerance to fester in the ranks. Lt.-Gen. Wayne Eyre

and

Here's another debate question:

Are we seeing more because there is more, or are we just better at recognizing it?

Back in the early 70s after battle school, I joined my Bn and I know there was a certain sgt-maj who was a racist. We had a Black sgt and i recall after one waincon, some young private would tell this sgt he still had on camo on his face. Another young private complained to the company NCOs that he had a Black room mate. Which was weird cause that Black soldier loved country music, could barely dance, loved to tinker on his car, and couldn't sing to save his life.

In my view, ModlrMike is right.

:2c:

 

[Donald H]

If i may relate to these quotes

and


Back in the early 70s after battle school, I joined my Bn and I know there was a certain sgt-maj who was a racist. We had a Black sgt and i recall after one waincon, some young private would tell this sgt he still had on camo on his face. Another young private complained to the company NCOs that he had a Black room mate. Which was weird cause that Black soldier loved country music, could barely dance, loved to tinker on his car, and couldn't sing to save his life.

In my view, ModlrMike is right.

:2c:

Shawn, it seems that you're agreeing with ModlrMike's question, even though I would agree that it's suggestive of his opinion.

Are you of the opinion that extremism is on the increase?

I think it is, or at least the army commander is being proactive on the possibility because of the definite increas in extremism in the US. That increase is quite undeniable and almost certainly going to spill across our border, if it hasn't already.

But of course those actively serving now will have the best answer.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Brihard said it better than I above.

Why would someone who feels the state is corrupt, oppressive and/or racist join the one organization of the state that has a monopoly on violence?

Maybe they didn't think that way when the joined, and got into 'real life' with mortgages, kids and bills, need the money and are close to a pension?  There's a few different scenarios that aren't entirely unbelievable or impossible...