Army Reserve taking the budget hit? - National Post

[OldSolduer]

Thank you Recce Guy!

Jim how many from the 38 Bde Inf Gp are LEO's? I ask because surely they can't be the only dudes holding it together.

Cheers
Noneck

We have six, and of the six five are sgt or higher.

 

[Haggis]

Sounds like there is a need for Reserve terms of service that include mandatory attendance.  Maybe move to an American model of fewer, but more well attended, parade days and exercises.

Canada has considered, and discarded, that approach and opted to retain a voluntary attendance model, whererin there are no true penalties for non attendance or non-support by employers.  Even though most provinces and territories have some form of job protection legislaition and the NDA has penalties (albeit very minor) for non attendance by Class A Reservists, neither has yet been used to coerce members to attend or employers to allow it.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Sounds like there is a need for Reserve terms of service that include mandatory attendance.  Maybe move to an American model of fewer, but more well attended, parade days and exercises.

I agree.  And while were at it lets push for some legislation to the effect that reservists cannot be penalized or let go from civilian employment because of reserve obligations. 

Funny we haven't heard from the NAVRES or AFRES on this yet.  Would NAVRES and AFRES run things so different that they aren't feeling this cut to reserves as much ?  And if so perhaps there is some organizational/logistical practices the Army Reserve could steal from them. 

Just a shot in the dark...

 

[Gunplumber]

I think more interest should be looked at the "...news that DND’s budget for professional services, which includes consultants and contractors, is up by $475-million while the army’s budget over all has been slashed by 22%." Thats where the money should be cut!

 

[brihard]

I need to point out that a very 'worst case' portrait of army reserve is being painted here. Many regiments - particularly in the cities - have pretty good attendance. Often times such issues as there are have more to do with exercises scheduled during exams and the like.

My regiment parades a three (over strength) platoon rifle coy, and most people show up most parades, with two platoons normally out on ex- and at any given time we have a lot of people tasked out or on/teaching courses. And we sent about 90 to Kandahar all in. I wouldn't say we indicate need for legislative change.

Usual caveat - 'anecdote' doesn't pluralize to 'data'.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Quick way to save money would be to reduce the number of senior positions. The two Reserve units in my city both add up to about maybe 2-3 platoons if everyone were to show up. For the one unit there is maybe 20-40 people that show up on average (maybe 70 total on paper) yet that unit has 3 Majors, 1 LCol, a MWO, and I can't really say exactly what else there is as that is the other unit not my own. It just is crazy to have so many higher ups for so few worker ranks. I think what is needed is a major restucturing in that keep the names and such of the Regiment the same but change how they are organized internally. Make it so for an Arty Reserve 'Regiment' (as an example) it is a battery at max so there top commander for their Regiment would be a Major who maybe reports to a LCol who commands several such units. I know for my unit as a Service Battalion we are just a CSS company out of the whole unit. Our unit almost parades the same as the other unit (in the city) yet our O.C. is a Captain and our highest NCM is a Warrant so it is not as though it is impossible. The overall command is a LCol who is actually in charge of 350 Reservists. If this model is able to work for the Service Battalions why couldn't it work for the other units.
Just my  :2c:

 

[Monsoon]

Funny we haven't heard from the NAVRES or AFRES on this yet.  Would NAVRES and AFRES run things so different that they aren't feeling this cut to reserves as much ?  And if so perhaps there is some organizational/logistical practices the Army Reserve could steal from them. 

Frankly, NAVRES is pretty flush at the moment. That's not likely to last indefinitely, but we benefit from the fact that the Reg F RCN is under its funded strength and that reserve pay is an easy discretionary to dial up (in the same way that it seems the Army is finding it an easy discretionary to dial down now that it's over its funded Reg F strength). I don't think that the situation in the militia has much to do with any decision MND has made - he's just an easy target politically for the advocates to go after in the hopes he'll intervene directly.

 

[Haggis]

Funny we haven't heard from the NAVRES or AFRES on this yet.

Unlike the Army Reserve, the NAVRES and Air Reserve have real world operational missions and platforms from which to execute those missions.  We do not.  Maybe having one would help the problem inasmuch as the leaders and soldiers would see more worth in their training and be more motivated to succeed?

Would NAVRES and AFRES run things so different that they aren't feeling this cut to reserves as much ?  And if so perhaps there is some organizational/logistical practices the Army Reserve could steal from them. 

The employment models for both vary so greatly from the Army Reserve as to make such a comparison useless.  The second difference is scale.  The third is span of control.  There are more Army Reserve soldiers in LFCA than there are all ranks in the Air Reserve. There are more Army Reserve units in LFWA than there are Naval Reserve Divisions in Canada.  There are some things they do better than we do and some they don't.  We need to mine that field and dig up the best practises from all.

 

[noneck]

We have six, and of the six five are sgt or higher.

Yeah that would do it! We are quite Emergency Services heavy in BC as well, with cops, firemen and other peace officers such as sheriffs and BSO's rounding it out. Fortunately most are senior enough on the job that they are in non rotating shift positions. As you point out, the majority of our folks in these jobs are in SNCO/senior officers slots.....including the Bde Comd and Bde CWO.

Cheers
Noneck

 

[MilEME09]

I think to some degree the reg force vs reserve mentality factors into this as well, here in 41 we constant get push back from LFWA saying what we cant do (which as a tech is apparently anything involving my job) So part of the drop in attendance is in part because we cant seem to be able to do the jobs we are trained for. From my experience interacting with NAVRES guys they seem content because they always have rotations to Kingston class ships. Army Reserves really have nothing in comparison, we have no foreign bases or anything that a reservist could go on to get some kind of experience, its sit at our armouries and listen to the same lectures year after year.

 

[54/102 CEF]

One of the previous posters noted the primary role is indiv augmentation to a full time force that gets deployed intermittently (to typically take part) in a coalition setting.

That's the Reg Force reality - they can't plan where they go and its all based on projecting outwards from whatever Army DIV (someone should stop joking around) - Bde - Area.

Deduction - You can't augment what you can't plan for.

You can ramp up training so that the deployed units have a slice of reserves and these troops will gain rich experience augmenting a pretty thinly manned Reg Force - then the deployment runs down and we start all over again.

Potshots at training up to Company Commander not with standing - I'm sure anyone who does their bit and crawls across the finish line at AOC has demonstrated an outlier stickwithitness that would serve all well when called up - but even if just to serve locally its unparalled training.

The grey beards who have done all leadership training in their arms and services alike have nothing to feel sheepish about. These are all can do guys and girls.

Where the vast majority get pinched is before Mcpl and trying to get to be a stable Capt so you have a civvy fall back. This will never change - ie the turmoil of the volunteer non-coerced soldier / Officer who is dragged away from his or her Regiment to a civvy job for family and economic means first - with the Reserves being a generally fond second.

In short - I see the Reserves as a sieve that many fall through because - they can't count on the cash when they need it in tech schools / specialty courses or post grade high school University headed education. Many survivers do - scabbing up Class B here and their in a patchwork until they get their Trades papers or Degree and then move on.

But many don't because the whole thing is based on indiv augmentation which = walking around in a pitch black room.

I think the answer lies in listening to the population of troops below Mcpl who is the center of gravity. What I read in the recent Reserve Forces Survey suggests to me the hierarchy can't focus on the bottom and they too are trying their best to lead ahead through a thick fog.

That leaves one avenue of advance open - Political Will.

In a future conflict I don't see NAVRES or Air Res contributing too much. The main effort is the Army. And the Army will suddenly need MORE SIR Please?

Where will more come from? The more is currently a weak centre of gravity as the population as we all (I will share in the blast of flames to come) suggest in this thread is not viable. eg: lets go to 18 Bn of Res Infantry - same probably translates across all MOC.

So when the Army Commander reads out his wish list to the flinty eyed money men of DND it should say - we want to train EVERY reservist with the full range of skills to get to pre Combat leader student level.

That means no more "can't train the stay at home troops as the trainers are deployed"

Fixing what seems to be the problem suggests a fully staffed corps of trainers from the Reg Force.

Every reservist will get trained or they won't advance and the manning for enough troops to fill this implied list of trained troops would significantly expand.

After about 5 years we should annually be completing training of somewhere up to 5000 fully capable troops that can step into a pre Afghan training cycle with ease.

Reg Force wins and Res Force wins.

I'm sure the money can be found and the shortfall sold as politically relevant for who ever is in Government.

 

[dapaterson]

I suspect the next year or two will see some changes in attitudes towards Reserve CSS soldiers.  Smart Reg F bases will realize that employing Reserve techs, even in the limited manner that class A permits, will enhance their throughput - and if it's "skills maintenance" funding paying the bill, it's free to the base.

I know in Ottawa, for example, the local Svc Bn can send Sup Techs to the base to assist in kitting out new recruits, and work is under way to get Veh Techs and Wpn techs doing some work as well.  It requires leadership engagement, and abandoning the "us vs them" mentality, but very positive things can be accomplished.

In fact, I recall seeing stats from a few years ago that showed that the two Army Reserve units with the most parading soldiers were the Svc Bns in Quebec City and Montreal - they supported the local CBGs and relieved pressure from the Reg F support units - a win/win for everyone.  All it takes is command engagement and a bit of common sense.  (And a desire to give soldiers more than IBTS, WHMIS and ethics lectures).

 

[Monsoon]

In a future conflict I don't see NAVRES or Air Res contributing too much.

:

 

[Journeyman]

In a future conflict I don't see NAVRES or Air Res contributing too much.

:

Well, that certainly was an eloquently expressed counter-argument.

 

[brihard]

:

I'm actually curious- what's the NAVRES contribution like on operational cruises for the frigates, destroyers, replenishment ships and subs? I don't know much about NAVRES tasks above the level of the MCDVs.

 

[dapaterson]

In a future conflict I don't see NAVRES or Air Res contributing too much. The main effort is the Army. And the Army will suddenly need MORE SIR Please?

As a purple person who bleeds green, I'll have to disagree here.

There is no Air Res - that Reserve has been committed.  I can argue how & why (over beers is preferable) - but the Air Res is already contributing.

As for the NAVRES, they are beginning a fundamental transformation, as the RCN abandons platforms specific to components and moves to Reg and Res both crewing the same vessels.  My initial, off the top of my head thought is that I'd like to see more class A sailors in the RCNVR - which would require more money, as I don't think the RCN can afford to roll back the size of their full-time Reserve.  But they will contribute to future conflict, and increasing the size of the base they have to draw on would increase their capabilities.

 

[Monsoon]

: Well, that certainly was an eloquently expressed counter-argument.

If I felt compelled to justify the existence of my formation, I'd certainly try to do it without denigrating the value of my peers in the other service branches.

I'm actually curious- what's the NAVRES contribution like on operational cruises for the frigates, destroyers, replenishment ships and subs? I don't know much about NAVRES tasks above the level of the MCDVs.

Generally individual augmentation at the junior NCM-level, but not too much of that at present as the Reg F is pressed for sea days in the heavies to do their own FG with the Halifax class in refit. The RCN has tended to be very platform-specific in its career approach (moving from, say, the tankers to the frigates is regarded as significant career disruption), and that's meant that NAVRES has been all about the Kingston class. The RCN's trying become like most of our allies and develop a less rigid FG model, so there's starting to be a bit more cross-manning (Reg F and reserve alike). If you want to know what NAVRES was doing to support ops from 2003 to 2011, the Kingston class was taking up the domestic tasks and Reg F FG work that the heavies were less available for during the heavier rotation periods. And of course hundreds deployed abroad as individual augmentees.

Unfortunately, unlike my learned colleague above, I'm far too ignorant to be able to discern what the country's future defence requirements will be, so I'm inclined to guess that it would be a good idea to keep us around.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Admiral Sir Staveley, First Sea Lord Royal Navy (IIRC): "Navies are expensive, but a damn sight cheaper than not having them around when you need them".

Best argument I've ever heard for making sure you got Regular and Reserve seamen available to you at all time.

 

[Haggis]

There is no Air Res - that Reserve has been committed.

That message has been ttransimitted many times over the past couple of years.

And, as we know, any Reserve that is committed should be immediately reconstituted.  The question within the Air Reserve, given their unique demographics (the majority are older ex Reg F members and very Class B heavy) and hard to acquires skill sets, is "how?".

 

[Sf2]

One of the previous posters noted the primary role is indiv augmentation to a full time force that gets deployed intermittently (to typically take part) in a coalition setting.

That's the Reg Force reality - they can't plan where they go and its all based on projecting outwards from whatever Army DIV (someone should stop joking around) - Bde - Area.

Deduction - You can't augment what you can't plan for.

You can ramp up training so that the deployed units have a slice of reserves and these troops will gain rich experience augmenting a pretty thinly manned Reg Force - then the deployment runs down and we start all over again.

Potshots at training up to Company Commander not with standing - I'm sure anyone who does their bit and crawls across the finish line at AOC has demonstrated an outlier stickwithitness that would serve all well when called up - but even if just to serve locally its unparalled training.

The grey beards who have done all leadership training in their arms and services alike have nothing to feel sheepish about. These are all can do guys and girls.

Where the vast majority get pinched is before Mcpl and trying to get to be a stable Capt so you have a civvy fall back. This will never change - ie the turmoil of the volunteer non-coerced soldier / Officer who is dragged away from his or her Regiment to a civvy job for family and economic means first - with the Reserves being a generally fond second.

In short - I see the Reserves as a sieve that many fall through because - they can't count on the cash when they need it in tech schools / specialty courses or post grade high school University headed education. Many survivers do - scabbing up Class B here and their in a patchwork until they get their Trades papers or Degree and then move on.

But many don't because the whole thing is based on indiv augmentation which = walking around in a pitch black room.

I think the answer lies in listening to the population of troops below Mcpl who is the center of gravity. What I read in the recent Reserve Forces Survey suggests to me the hierarchy can't focus on the bottom and they too are trying their best to lead ahead through a thick fog.

That leaves one avenue of advance open - Political Will.

In a future conflict I don't see NAVRES or Air Res contributing too much. The main effort is the Army. And the Army will suddenly need MORE SIR Please?

Where will more come from? The more is currently a weak centre of gravity as the population as we all (I will share in the blast of flames to come) suggest in this thread is not viable. eg: lets go to 18 Bn of Res Infantry - same probably translates across all MOC.

So when the Army Commander reads out his wish list to the flinty eyed money men of DND it should say - we want to train EVERY reservist with the full range of skills to get to pre Combat leader student level.

That means no more "can't train the stay at home troops as the trainers are deployed"

Fixing what seems to be the problem suggests a fully staffed corps of trainers from the Reg Force.

Every reservist will get trained or they won't advance and the manning for enough troops to fill this implied list of trained troops would significantly expand.

After about 5 years we should annually be completing training of somewhere up to 5000 fully capable troops that can step into a pre Afghan training cycle with ease.

Reg Force wins and Res Force wins.

I'm sure the money can be found and the shortfall sold as politically relevant for who ever is in Government.

You just filled my Buzzword Bingo card.  Thanks!!