Battle Honours and Colours question

[George Wallace]

Standards are Unit Specific.

Although the King's Banner is Unit specific, it probably falls into your latter category.

 

[warrickdll]

A slightly older thread but, prompted by a couple of recent threads:
- Unit rerolling in the Italian Campaign thread (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/3079/post-33009/topicseen.html#msg33009); and
- Unit lineage in the 1812 Battle Honours thread (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/26205.0.html)

Is there anyone in favour of having the artillery and engineers (and perhaps others) using a similar Battle Honours system as the Infantry or Armoured units? Or is Ubique pretty much set?

 

[Long in the tooth]

The GG unit commendation has been presented to a few Regiments recently to recognize actions overseas.  Quite rightly, too.  These awards seem to me to have a divisive effect later on as it is also an individual award.  IMHO with the number of casualties and stellar performance in Kandahar, the PPCLI should be awarded a Battle Honour for the colours.  Once again, IMHO these have a more unifying effect on the soldiers as they belong to all the members, and passes on the history of the Regiment to even the newest member.

It avoids the 'I was actually there and earned it' syndrome.  Or in this age is the GG award the most appropriate?  A battle honour award would be significant and also teach newer generations the significance of what's already on the Regimental colours. 

Any thoughts?

 

[geo]

Interesting point....
Units and troops who fought in Korea earned their unit(s) a "Korea" battle honour.
2VP also earned a US presidential citation.

because we're in a peacemaking role, I would  venture to say that an "Afghanistan" battle honour should be considered.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Gents:  already being discussed here:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/27435.0.html

 

[GunnerO]

Geo Thanks I'm glad you mentioned the PPCLI in Koreafor winning that battle honour, it was at Kap Yong.Korea was also considered a "police action" at the time,what ever that means. So what is Afganistan? A war,a conflict, a police action? Oh did the Van doos win a battle honour for Korea as well?

 

[Michael OLeary]

Oh did the Van doos win a battle honour for Korea as well?

33.1 BATTLE HONOURS - UNITED NATIONS OPERATIONS - KOREA 1950-53

31 Mar 58

The regiments of the Canadian Army eligible for Korean battle honours are:

Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) (2nd Armoured Regiment)
The Royal Canadian Regiment
Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
Royal 22e Regiment

http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/koreanwar-btlhnrs.htm

Battle Honours of the Canadian Army
Royal 22e Régiment
http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/bathnrinf/03-r22er.htm

Korean War

Conflict - United Nations Operations - Korea, 1950-1953

Battle honour awarded - Korea, 1951-1953  

Reference - Royal 22e Regiment - "Korea, 1951-53"; (Cdn Army Orders, Issue No. 634, 9 Feb 1959)

 

[Gorgo]

Does the Navy and Airforce have "battle honours" or "colours" in the same context as the army?

P.s what is a good source for Canadian military traditions and practices? (So I don't have to ask all of these questions)

Thanks, Jack

To answer about Navy ships, they do carry battle honours, but those are displayed on a plaque that's displayed on the quarterdeck of a ship (for an actual ship) or displayed on the quarterdeck in the main entrance hallway (in the main building of each of the Navy Reserve divisions).  The battle honours are passed down for each ship that shares the name.  For example, HMCS Saguenay, my old destroyer (pendant number DDH-206), technically perpetuates the original HMCS Saguenay (pendant number D-79), which was awarded the battle honour ATLANTIC 1939-1942.  The Naval Reserve divisions, such as HMCS Queen in Regina, inherited the same thing from the old British ships of the same name, hence its battle honour roll includes USHANT 1781, FIRST OF JUNE, 1794, CROIX ISLAND, 1795, CRIMEA, 1854-55, DARDANELLES, 1915, ATLANTIC, 1944, NORWAY, 1945 and ARCTIC, 1945, which were all earned by the past HM Ships Queen that had served in the British Navy.

 

[geo]

WRT the Airforce....
a picture beats a thousand words.....

439 "Tiger" squadron

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Come on geo, lets bring out the measuring stick and show what our battle honours would look like  ;D

 

[geo]

Nfld Sapper
Youn know that there isn't an Colour officer tall enough to carry all the battle honours of the CME
As per the decision of our Sovereign (Victoria) we should use the single "UBIQUE" which is to mean "Everywhere" cause sappers can be found everywhere

(PS... this is not to be confused with the "UBIQUE" or the Artillery, which is to mean "all over the place" cause gunners can & do shoot - all over the palce > )

 

[Michael OLeary]

Youn know that there isn't an Colour officer tall enough to carry all the battle honours of the CME

You would just have to get around those pesky eligibility condtions:

7.    Honours may be awarded in respect of service in either an armoured or an infantry role to:

    (a)    regiments which are entitled by custom to carry colours. This category includes

      (i)    The Governor General's Horse Guards and the 4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards,

      (ii)    former cavalry regiments designated or classified as dragoons,

      (iii)    infantry regiments, including those converted to regiments of the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps,

      (iv)    parachute regiments;

    (b)    regiments which are entitled to bear honours on their clothing or appointments. This category includes,

      (i)    former cavalry regiments designated as hussars,

      (ii)    rifle regiments.

In particular, this one:

8.    Regiments and units of other arms and of the services are not eligible for awards.

http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/secondworldwar-btlhnrs.htm

 

[geo]

Oh Michael... this is old stuff....
You have to rememember that, around the 1850s when Victoria was Queen Empress, one of her sons was an officer in the Corp or Royal Engineers.
I'll have to dig up the story.... but, if the Queen Empress was his mother..... there are many things that could and probably did happen.

 

[davidk]

Something of an aside from the current discussion, but still fits under the general topic of battle honours and colours...

Why is it that most Canadian units (which have colours) only list their battle honours on the regimental colour, while the two Guards regiments carry them on the Queen's colour as well?

 

[geo]

Something of an aside from the current discussion, but still fits under the general topic of battle honours and colours...

Why is it that most Canadian units (which have colours) only list their battle honours on the regimental colour, while the two Guards regiments carry them on the Queen's colour as well?

Have checked - effectifely, CGG & GGFG both carry the same battle honours on both Regimental & Royal colours.
Off the top of my head, I would suggest it is just another one of these "guard things".
There are many "quiffs" that can be attributed to the Guards.. as in, Guards don't stand for the loyal toast - cause the guards have always been loyal - even during Cromwell's rebellion & do not have to prove it.  (yeah, yeah - had it all explained to me wayback when by A CGG RSM)

 

[davidk]

There are many "quiffs" that can be attributed to the Guards.. as in, Guards don't stand for the loyal toast - cause the guards have always been loyal - even during Cromwell's rebellion & do not have to prove it.  (yeah, yeah - had it all explained to me wayback when by A CGG RSM)

But the Coldstream Guards (who the GGFG are patterned after) were raised by Cromwell to fight the monarchists. How can the GGFG justify their claim of "always loyal"?

 

[dapaterson]

Two Guards regiments?  There are in fact three Guards regiments within the Reserves, and another on the Supplementary Order of Battle.

They are, of course,  the Governor General's Horse Guards; the Governor General's Foot Guards; the Canadian Grenadier Guards, and the Canada Guards.

 

[davidk]

dapaterson, thanks for the reminder, though I was in fact referring to the two PRes Infantry Guards regiments, as my query relates to colours, not the guidon carried by the GGHG.

 

[Old Sweat]

Actually it was The Canadian Guards. And don't forget the 4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards.

 

[Drummy]

Have checked - effectifely, CGG & GGFG both carry the same battle honours on both Regimental & Royal colours.
Off the top of my head, I would suggest it is just another one of these "guard things".
There are many "quiffs" that can be attributed to the Guards.. as in, Guards don't stand for the loyal toast - cause the guards have always been loyal - even during Cromwell's rebellion & do not have to prove it.  (yeah, yeah - had it all explained to me wayback when by A CGG RSM)

As a member of The Canadian Guards, both as 031 and 871, I attended many mess dinners and played at many more. We always stood for the Loyal Toast.

Drummy