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Benefits Cut...

PMedMoe said:
The reasoning for not paying for (partial) meals for people on IR (or PP or RP) is that they are not incurring those costs at home.  So, by the same token, people on TD, in the field or at sea are also not incurring those costs at home and therefore should not be covered for rations in those situations.  Regardless of the cost/type/etc....

Yeah, but I have a fridge, a freezer and a stove at my house where I can eat comfortably for a couple hundred a month. I don't know what single guy eats $700 worth of food a month. Rations need to be delinked or this whole policy is just to screw troops over to save a few bucks.
 
PuckChaser said:
Yeah, but I have a fridge, a freezer and a stove at my house where I can eat comfortably for a couple hundred a month. I don't know what single guy eats $700 worth of food a month. Rations need to be delinked or this whole policy is just to screw troops over to save a few bucks.

A pregnancy test from the pharmacy costs $10.
If someone gets a pregnancy test done from the hospital it costs over $100 due to paying wages of people working etc..

Maybe the ridiculous price of rations is due to similar reasons?

There's no way I can afford to pay for rations.

If people DO pay for rations they should not be charged extra if they get it to go.
 
Thats fine, then maybe the CF needs to look at how it does the Food Svcs business. Ordering someone to go to a certain place, and then ordering them to pay nearly double what they would at home is just insane. IR is mostly a choice, and should not be put on the same breath as prohibited posting. These young soldiers don't have a choice to go, and they're going to be incurring all sorts of debt and destroying quality of life at home. Looks like a big cash grab to me, cancel rations for prohibited and then order them on ration strength. Sounds like a good way to double your money.
 
Much effort has been made by the TB and our CoC to justify these SE cuts are logical because members would have to pay for their food and incidentals whether they were at home or away regardless.  I totally concur with this logic and think it is a fair way to screw the troops forced to be away from home, but only after our Members of Parliament set the example:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/mp-cost/
 
ObedientiaZelum said:
Maybe the ridiculous price of rations is due to similar reasons?

Yes, rations charges account for more than just 'the cost of groceries'.  I read something on it last week on the ADM (Mat), Food Svcs DIN site.  Will look again and post it tomorrow.
 
I am just more and more angry because its seriously been a bait and switch for us.  When he joined, we were told he wouldn't have to pay r&q for his training because he's got me at home.  Suddenly halfway through he does?  Maybe some people can afford the 583 a month reduction, we can't.  I will not be able to save any money, or make extra large payments on any of our debts.  We're both dealing with debt, and it's TOTALLY our own fault.  i don't expect anyone to bail me out.  But we pay everything on time, and his joining was the first time we were able to just start paying things off constantly cause it's the first time we've both had good jobs.  Then I got laid off, and now this?  After Rent and utilities and basic payments of bills, we used to have 1200 dollars a month.  - roughly 400 for seperation expenses being cut(Which I don't disagree with I understand that) and add in a payment of the 583, and suddenly we have 220.  320 if I cut my groceries.

So now he's got a memo in to move which is going to be much more expensive than just paying his damned rations for the rest of his training.  And I have to move, which was not the plan until next September.  Thank god this came down BEFORE I enrolled in school because we could not have afforded to leave me behind to finish my college course.  And thank god borden is a place that we can live cheaper in than we live now.

I just hope they sort this out.  They'll loose a lot of great candidates if they know they have to pay rations when they have no choice.  And the guys on PAT in Borden have to live in the Shacks,  That's the worst part for me.  The IR abusers live in apartments, how sad for them, they can cook.  My guy has to pay rations which are a whole lot more expensive than groceries.
 
Quellefille said:
I am just more and more angry because its seriously been a bait and switch for us.  When he joined, we were told he wouldn't have to pay r&q for his training because he's got me at home. 

I feel for you. I really do. My family can afford this (we are both MWOs) if it's forced fed down our throats under the guise of "but we really look after our personnel" (good comms strategy there!!), but we shouldn't have to. It isn't about how much money whichever troop makes. It is about fairness and equitability. We didn't choose to be separated.

Our personnel new to the CF who are prohibited posted will suffer the greatest from this most certainly because that rations charge is a greater percentage of their income. It's fucked and it shouldn't be happening to you guys. I'll apologize for the fact that it is as it is certainly never good to be tossed under the bus by your employer and creates an extremely bad impression and taste to be left in your mouths thinking about how much the CF really cares about you.

In the end, I hope that the fight others will be going through beginning 01 Sept, will benefit families and young troops like yourselves who are the ones who suffer the greatest impact by this. It is what us leaders are supposed to do. Someone needs to look after you. This is far more than just personal to me. You young folks are the future of this organization I love.

For me, I'm pensionable end January. My attitude is now that careers can find someone else to post in the middle of the winter now away from their family because it won't be me anymore. Then, they'll have two spots to fill instead of one.
 
" If people DO pay for rations they should not be charged extra if they get it to go."

I just returned from 3 weeks in Alaska for Red Flag. Unlke previous TD's where we were on full per diem despite our lodging being walking distance to a mess hall, we were directed to eat at the mess hall for free (the Alaskan mess charged $3.90 per meal per person rate) and received only 17.30 per day incidentals. After having experienced the mess hall here, although it was nowhere near as good as Canadian messes (especially Comox!), I was impressed with how the US runs their food facilities here. I don't know what the US living in pers pay here, if anything, but they allow people, after they eat dinner at a table, to fill yet another tray of hot food to go and put it in a plastic bag with cans of pop, salads, etc. They also have a midnight meal where the mess is open 11pm to 1am. Cost of preparation, dishwashing staff, etc aside, if people are forced into paying rations the $500+ figure is ridiculous. Especially considering many students on course or PAT are not allowed the option of 1/2 rations like people who voluntarily live in the shacks have depending on their base. I didn't spend that when I was buying for a family of 3.




 
There was a story on the National (CBC) last night. So it is getting out there.

I am on IR in Esquimalt (currently in Halifax on TD) and will be living on the economy once I get back. Since I will be getting Sea Pay that will offset the loss of rations and SE, so I will be one of the "lucky" ones.

I am with Army Vern, I am already pensionable and the pull to call it a day is very strong. Lets hope the CoC is working at making this directive from the commissar   Treasury Board more reasonable for those affected.
 
Quellefille said:
The IR abusers

I agree with your statement and like Vern, feel that the new recruits will be hit by this the hardest, but please don't paint everyone on IR with such a broad brush.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again, anyone on IR who was actually making money off of it, was either starving or possibly committing fraud.

 
Quellefille said:
I just hope they sort this out.  They'll loose a lot of great candidates if they know they have to pay rations when they have no choice. 


No they won't.  New candidates will not miss something they never had.
 
Posted with the usual Copyright Act caveats...

Original link

Military meal program cut will cause 'undue hardship'

Defence department will save $30M by cutting back on expense program

CBC News Posted: Aug 16, 2012 9:44 AM AT Last Updated: Aug 16, 2012 10:48 AM AT

Military workers will soon see their living expenses go up when the federal government cuts a program that pays for meals and other costs when they are working away from their families.

The Department of National Defence is cutting part of the Separation Expense Benefits Program on Sept. 1, which will save an estimated $30 million.

When the military puts members on "imposed restriction” — when they are forced to move away for a short period of time, such as a year, from their family for work — it pays for their room and board.

But military members will now be forced to pay for meals and other incidental living costs starting next month when they are on imposed restriction.

Some people fear the change is going to be a hardship for many families.

Susan Gullacher’s husband was posted to CFB Cold Lake last October, but she decided to stay in the family’s mobile home near Edmonton.

Gullacher said she thought her family could handle the separation.

But that was until the military sent them a memo earlier this month saying it was cutting her husband’s meal allowance.

"I said to him, ‘This is going to destroy us. We just don't have that money. You wouldn't be able to come home on weekends,’” she said.

Gullacher said her husband doesn't have a kitchenette in his room at the base so he would have to purchase meals in the military mess.

She said a full meal plan costs $550, which is about the same amount she used to spend on groceries to feed her entire family of four for a month.

“There has been no warning — nothing,” she said.

“It’s just 30 days and it is going to take effect. I can't even plan to make sure my family stays secure. "

Mary Chamberlain, the executive vice-president of the Union of National Defence Employees, said she has been calling for changes to the imposed restrictions program. But these changes are not what she was anticipating.

She said there were times when the program was being abused. But she said the elimination of the program is not the way to deal with the previous problems.

“People should be compensated reasonably for what they're entitled to. I mean, the military is putting them in these circumstances,” Chamberlain said.

The defence department said it is looking at ways to help families who may now have trouble making ends meet.

But Chamberlain said she believes this specific change is “going to cause undue hardship in the future" for families who cannot afford to live in two places at once.

The federal government’s cuts aren’t being criticized by everyone, however.

Stephanie Sherwood’s ex-husband works at CFB Gagetown near Fredericton. She said her family got money when he was placed elsewhere for work.

But she said she doesn't think the payments are necessary.

"I understand that it's hard for families to be [apart], but under the same circumstance they need to realize that this is what happens when you get into this line of work," she said.

"It's money that comes out of our pocket that I feel could be put elsewhere."

 
They are cutting here and there using every excuse in the book.  Some of these cuts will bite them hard in the ass  I fear. 
 
CDNAIRFORCE said:
" If people DO pay for rations they should not be charged extra if they get it to go."

I just returned from 3 weeks in Alaska for Red Flag. Unlke previous TD's where we were on full per diem despite our lodging being walking distance to a mess hall, we were directed to eat at the mess hall for free (the Alaskan mess charged $3.90 per meal per person rate) and received only 17.30 per day incidentals. After having experienced the mess hall here, although it was nowhere near as good as Canadian messes (especially Comox!), I was impressed with how the US runs their food facilities here. I don't know what the US living in pers pay here, if anything, but they allow people, after they eat dinner at a table, to fill yet another tray of hot food to go and put it in a plastic bag with cans of pop, salads, etc. They also have a midnight meal where the mess is open 11pm to 1am. Cost of preparation, dishwashing staff, etc aside, if people are forced into paying rations the $500+ figure is ridiculous. Especially considering many students on course or PAT are not allowed the option of 1/2 rations like people who voluntarily live in the shacks have depending on their base. I didn't spend that when I was buying for a family of 3.

This is the other thing that often gets missed. We pay about 400 dollars a month in groceries for a family of four. That includes snacks when ever I want them. The 550 includes 3 meals only when the mess is open. I still pay for snacks. I still pay for coffee at a dollar a pop(which for me is a huge expense) instead of a 5 dollar can of folgers a month. If I want to sleep in on sunday, I have to go pay for breakfeast somewhere else. If I work through lunch or dinner, I have to pay for food. I would estimate that the average person is going to pay 100-150 over an above the 550.

Stephanie Sherwood’s ex-husband works at CFB Gagetown near Fredericton. She said her family got money when he was placed elsewhere for work.

But she said she doesn't think the payments are necessary.

I love how they went to someone's ex to that quote. Probably couldn't get one single spouse to give them one.
 
Occam said:
Susan Gullacher’s husband was posted to CFB Cold Lake last October, but she decided to stay in the family’s mobile home near Edmonton.

I'm sorry, but everything after that was just white noise...........................
 
The war is over! We have entered a period of Force Reduction (Program) by other means. Its starting to feel like 1992 again.
I would love to see how the army now intends to get SNCO's to be posted to CFB Wainwright next summer.Brutal.
 
Occam said:
"I understand that it's hard for families to be [apart], but under the same circumstance they need to realize that this is what happens when you get into this line of work," she said.

Yup. And those people were told by CF recruiters if they are forced to move away from their family for X amount of time they will qualify for IR et el.
 
PMedMoe said:
I agree with your statement and like Vern, feel that the new recruits will be hit by this the hardest, but please don't paint everyone on IR with such a broad brush.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again, anyone on IR who was actually making money off of it, was either starving or possibly committing fraud.

I am not.  I was specifying those who are abusing IR.  There are people on it for perfectly valid reasons.  My friends husband went IR as she has 3 surgeries scheduled in the next year and it's just not possible to pick up and move.  He went IR a few years back for 6 months or so so his son could finish high school.  My aunt did the same thing when she was posted to Edmonton during her sons last year of high school.  I'm pointing out that those who are using the IR system as a way to just not move the family aren't the ones stuck in the shacks with no option but to pay rations

Edit: Looking at the comments in that articleon CBC, I'm please to see it's almost overwhelmingly supportive of the soldiers.  Because they don't like the idea of soldiers being away from their families for work and having to pay their own meals.
 
Quellefille said:
I am not.  I was specifying those who are abusing IR.  There are people on it for perfectly valid reasons.  My friends husband went IR as she has 3 surgeries scheduled in the next year and it's just not possible to pick up and move.  He went IR a few years back for 6 months or so so his son could finish high school.  My aunt did the same thing when she was posted to Edmonton during her sons last year of high school.  I'm pointing out that those who are using the IR system as a way to just not move the family aren't the ones stuck in the shacks with no option but to pay rations

Edit: Looking at the comments in that article on CBC, I'm please to see it's almost overwhelmingly supportive of the soldiers.  Because they don't like the idea of soldiers being away from their families for work and having to pay their own meals.

They are supportive because they think this is the penalty for F-35's.....

I don't think this is a very good article.  To ask someone who is at most living 3 hours apart and then asking an ex-wife for the opposing opinion. 
Yeah no biases here!  ::)

Nice it's come out but I'm not holding my breath for sweeping changes now?!?!  I think there will be more to come once grievances are filed.
 
This one is a bit mind boggling.  If this was meant to tackle IR abuses, it falls way short of the goal.

Will wait and see how this turns out, but I was actually seriously considering going on IR to Esquimalt in a few years for an 18 month stint on ship before the inevitable pull back to Ottawa.

There are lots of reasons for this to be attractive; I'll (hopefully) be deployed with the ship more often then in port.  Also, prices in Esquimalt are way out of my range, and Qs are in short supply, so I'll most likely be either having a huge commute or renting at more then what I currently pay for a mortgage.  My wife currently works here, and there is no guarantee she'd be able to find a job in Esquimalt. 

So while it would be my choice, it is financially far less with the current benefit package without these cuts to SE. The most recent move here from Halifax cost the crown over 30k by the time it was all said and done.  So two full moves in two years or less vice me going up on my own and living in either quarters or in an apartment.  And if I live in the shacks I'll typically be gone before they serve meals and back after they are done, so if I'm required to pay rations, I'll be shelling out for food I'll never eat (although at least I can eat onboard, but someone is paying for that mostly deep fried food as well).

So if this stays as is, I'll be looking at a couple of options;
-taking two full moves at a significant cost to the crown ($60-80k)
-going on IR anyway and most likely trying to find an apartment rather then paying for rations I'll almost never use
-turning down a career posting that I spent 6 years training to do, which would mean I'm actively looking for a civvie job

One of the early posts mentioned that they being in the CF should be a calling and not 'just a job'.  I agree with that.  I joined the Navy to serve my country, and I love doing it.  But nickle and diming me at every opportunity, and putting me in a situation where I will potentially be in significantly worse financial shape knocks a lot of that sheen off.  This is exactly the kind of thing that makes people look at it as 'just a job'.

Feel free to tell me to suck it up and go find another job if I don't like it.  I don't want to, but I'm also not stupid.  On the plus side, all the (expensive) training I've gotten has given me some pretty marketable skills.  So if push comes to shove I may pull the plug with much regret and work elsewhere, and the CF will never get back it's investment.  And I'm done my training... if I was one of the guys on a restricted posting now on QL3s etc and this came down, guess how much of a calling the CF would seem like then?

Hope it'll change, this is pretty shortsighted.  Might save $30M on paper, but if you alienate a good portion of the trainees there may not be anyone left in the pipes to run or maintain any of the fancy new gear they may or may not ever buy.
 
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