Best Air Support ?

[Inch]

Just a point that I have 'pointed out' to others in the AFV Recognition lines of discusion....The USMC has a lot of its equipment predeployed aboard ship.  A Super Cobra is very small, it, besides offering a smaller head-on profile, takes up little space compared to an Apache.  As such you can fit two or three Super Cobras in the space that an Apache may take up aboard ship. 

Now ask yourself;  "Would I want one Apache in support of my Operation, or two or three Super Cobras?"

George,

I've posted this before, but I would hardly say that the Super Cobra is "very small". It's actually longer than the Apache by about a foot when the rotors are turning. It's slightly lighter than the Apache at all up weight, but we're talking less than 500lbs difference between the AH-1W and the AH-64A, the AH-64D is a little over 1000 lbs heavier than the AH-1W. Rotor diameter is within 1 ft of each other. The only dimension the AH-64 is much bigger in is width of fuselage due to the larger winglets, it's 6 ft wider than the AH-1.

The major difference when storing them is that the AH-1W has only two rotor blades vs the 4 of the AH-64, and since the Apache doesn't fold, the Cobra is easier to store. Having said that, the AH-1Z is coming online and it has 4 blades, so the difference between the two size wise will be next to nil.

 

[vonGarvin]

No AC-130's, Cobras, or Stukas?

How about a Twin Otter with a C1 SMG mounted in each window?

DON'T JOKE ABOUT THAT!  I saw this old "film" on the militia from the early 70's and a Twin Otter flew just such a mission on this exercise, with the C5 GPMG firing out the side!  UGH!

 

[GO!!!]

One other aspect even if it’s doable financially and physically (aircraft and aircrew available) is the political aspect.

This is the biggest obstacle, IMHO.

The Loony left  can't really complain too much about expanding and upgrading logistical capabilities. They can (and will) scream if and when we start to purchase other needed kit, like AC 130s, Leo 2s or Atk Helos.

I predict that the high speed weapons will not start to be purchased until we get a Conservative majority government who can safely relegate the leftist opposition like the BQ and NDP to irrelevance.

 

[Danjanou]

This is the biggest obstacle, IMHO.

The Loony left  can't really complain too much about expanding and upgrading logistical capabilities. They can (and will) scream if and when we start to purchase other needed kit, like AC 130s, Leo 2s or Atk Helos.

I predict that the high speed weapons will not start to be purchased until we get a Conservative majority government who can safely relegate the leftist opposition like the BQ and NDP to irrelevance.

yup until then we're back to Plan B  excessive development and eventual procurment of the  The ATGTSCAAP (Air to Ground Teflon Soft Cuddly Animal Anti Personal) System. 8)

 

[couchcommander]

Rather than Stuka's... what about some OV-10's?

They seemed (from an uninformed perspective) to be effective in their role and appreciated by the troops on the ground. They're relatively simple and cheap (even more so than a warthog), might be able to restart production domestically. That way we could hook siren's to the bottom as well.  >

 

[aesop081]

Rather than Stuka's... what about some OV-10's?

They seemed (from an uninformed perspective) to be effective in their role and appreciated by the troops on the ground. They're relatively simple and cheap (even more so than a warthog), might be able to restart production domestically. That way we could hook siren's to the bottom as well.  >

Do you know what the OV-10 is for ?

Not  a ground attack aircraft !

 

[couchcommander]

Hrm???

I'm pretty sure it was used for such purposes in Vietnam.

 

[mdh]

The Bronco - little bit of this, little bit of that....IIRC one was shot down in the GWI and its crew displayed on TV by the Iraqis...

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/ov-10.htm

mdh

 

[Loachman]

The current Herc fleet will be retired progressively as they hit their limits while the new ones filter in. Those few that are left by the end of the replacement programme will still be needed for tpt. We would not get our money's worth out of converting those to AC status given the limited hours that would be remaining anyway - and that work would probably cost more than buying new ones.

Two would not give any real capability anyway. Figure on three minimum to give a reasonable probability of having one serviceable but not necessarily available at all times. Then you'd still have to consider the training bill, both initial and currency.

I would suggest that there are much more important bits of kit that we need before doing that - like Y-model conversion/swap with EO/IR sensor and weapons kits for the CH146 and ultimate acquisition of Z-model AH-1.

And Bell RH-70 ARH http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/en/aircraft/military/ARH/bellARH3.cfm for me...

Trivia from http://www.designation-systems.net/usmilav/missing-mds.html

"H-69
When the VH-71A designation was assigned to the Lockheed Martin US-101 (winner of the VXX (Presidential Helicopter) competition), the design numbers 69 and 70 in the H-series were skipped (H-70 has since been allocated to the Bell ARH). As has been confirmed by the VXX Program Office, the number "69" was regarded as embarrassing, because that number is also known as a synonym for a certain sexual practice. According to USAF/XPPE, H-69 will not be assigned in the future to any helicopter."

 

[WogCpl]

Forget AC-130's, if we are going to have heavy lift helos, then it only makes sense to buy escorts to fit the same bill. correct me if i an wrong, but we are using our hercs in a operational role and not so much a tactical one, so once we get some true tactical airlift, ie. chinooks, we will need escort for them or we will once again be relying on the US to cover our asses. AC-130's are great, but a apache or a cobra IMHO would be more effective at covering a tactical force mounted on chinooks, and providing deployed troops with a limited CAS capability.

 

[couchcommander]

The Bronco - little bit of this, little bit of that....

Indeed they have other uses, but I seem to remember them being employed in a COIN sense rather effectively. I wouldn't want to put one on total war battlefield - but loitering in support of COIN ops - pretty sure its done it effectively.

 

[aesop081]

Indeed they have other uses, but I seem to remember them being employed in a COIN sense rather effectively. I wouldn't want to put one on total war battlefield - but loitering in support of COIN ops - pretty sure its done it effectively.

None the less...the OV-10, like the OV-1 before it are basicaly airborne FAC aircraft and are best used as such.  Not that it matters since they are fairly rare nowadays.  You want air support, get an air support aircraft not a light observation platform.

 

[couchcommander]

You'd certainly know more about them than I would, so I'll take your word for it (for now, at least, until I can get home and pull up the source...).

 

[Loachman]

Rather than Stuka's... what about some OV-10's?

Sure - if you want a 40-year-old design that carries a light payload.

You want old clapped-out surplus ones or do you want to pay the big bucks to have the production lines re-started (and I bet that none of the jigs and tooling have been retained) for a dozen or so examples?

There's a good reason that most armies use attack or armed helicopters.

 

[couchcommander]

well a) thinking out loud and pointed to my uninformedness in the first post... no reason to get hostile here!

but b) The (joking) suggestion was for Stuka's - cheap, simple, relatively effective. My "thinking out loud" suggestion was hey, aren't these things a *little* more modern, but still fit the bill? Yea you may need to completely restart production, but as I eluded to in the first post they are practically home built.

In the end, they are dirt cheap and seemed to have been used effectively in that role before. aesop081 says it's a bad idea, not a good airframe for the role. Great, he'd know (apparently so would you), idea blown out of the water.

 

[GAP]

Shyly touching my toe to the water....I hesitate to mention that while the OV were a welcome sight in their day (because it meant all hell was going to follow), many of these roles can be now done by the wide variety of UAV's.

 

[munky99999]

As far as I have been reading we are getting a total of 4(four) globetrotters. Certainly these 4 planes aren’t enough to replace the Hercules planes. So you couldn’t possibly realistically think we’ll retire the Hercules planes. From what I’ve been getting from the idea of the globetrotters are there just to supplement the Hercules for the larger jobs that need to be done that are on the outer limits of the Hercules. As for the conversion of our Hercules to a gunship; I suppose it’s possible it could be done. But really how much benefit could come from it that can’t be done with an ally (USA) or CF-18? I just don’t see the cost being efficient for the benefit.

Honestly I could see Canada move into some AWACS systems rather before any gunships, but I don’t see that happening neither.

 

[condor888000]

From what I understand they are looking at 21 aircraft. 4 C-17's and 17 Herc replacements.

 

[couchcommander]

Shyly touching my toe to the water....I hesitate to mention that while the OV were a welcome sight in their day (because it meant all hell was going to follow), many of these roles can be now done by the wide variety of UAV's.

Good point.

 

[HItorMiss]

Munky there are numerous threads on what we are supposedly aquiring in terms of aircraft and ships. Should you really feel the need to post on this topic perhaps you should actually pay attention to what were getting before you beak off and show how dumb people can really be when they post and don't keep up with current events.

Now the for your education only... the C17 Globemaster III is a Strategic Lift Aircraft, it hauls Supplies and troops and usually isn't used in the Tactical environ. It requires a paved Runway that is generally well maintained and is large enough for large commercial aircraft

the CC130 Hercules is a Tactical lift Aircraft used to haul supplies and troops in a tactical environment, it is a none paved runway capable aircraft used in harsh condition for tactical re sup.

That's not all, nor is it the best definition of both aircraft but it's a pretty well rounded and base one. Air Force pers feel free to add to it, but I hope this gives Munky a sense of what were talking about.


*Edit: Thank you Aesop for the porper designation.