Borden Thread- Merged

[Eye In The Sky]

"Wow, you look hot tonight!"  She can either take that two ways:  A.  as a compliment or B.  as a verbal "advance"

IMO, a comment such as this example is not appropriate officially.  I am not familiar with all aspects of OLQs as a Jnr NCO but...the CYA program applies at all times.

Without further info, which is not posted here (nor should it be IMO) the rest is spec fire.

 

[PMedMoe]

IMO, a comment such as this example is not appropriate officially.  I am not familiar with all aspects of OLQs as a Jnr NCO but...the CYA program applies at all times.

Without further info, which is not posted here (nor should it be IMO) the rest is spec fire.

Which was the point of my final comment.

Obviously, it's all speculation as I wasn't there

I just find that some people are very sensitive.  Not saying that's the case here.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Seen! 

 

[Ammo]

Just a couple of points that might have been missed by some members.
Firstly, the rank is Capt (N), equivalent to FULL Col.
Secondly, news reports say that the incident happened on July 7th, which was a Monday. Do "female get all dressed up" on a Monday? (But I don't want to sound sexist here...).
Thirdly, note that "They (the two women) did not file an official complaint" and "On July 8, Capt. Schmidt offered to resign if it was determined that he had acted improperly".
Not trying to defend my old Base Commander, but nevertheless... IMO he did the right thing, made mistakes and is living with the consequences.

 

[xena]

And from the sounds of it, it is possible that the investigation could completely exonerate him.  He's just on leave while being investigated.  It would stand to reason that this would be to avoid possible influence because of his position and authority on the base.  He's on leave so investigators can investigate unbiasedly.  Or so I would guess from watching TV shows like NCIS and stuff (okay, bad habit there!)

Both false (or at least overreacting) accusations and inappropriate conduct of senior officers has happened before in the history of the world.  Lets let the investigation investigate first.

My two kopecks though.  Feel free to ignore.

 

[xena]

Oh, hang on.  Maybe I didn't read the first article clearly enough.  Blasted contacts are giving me eye strain.

Sorry.

Edited because I couldn't spell if my life depended on it!

 

[fire_guy686]

That's a rough way to go out.

 

[geo]

Just to play Devil's Advocate, I wonder what verbal "advances" were made?  I have to say, from a female's point of view, I would really hate to be a male.
Picture this:
A guy is at the Mess (of whatever rank you choose) and a female is there, all dressed up.  Very nice, like she took some time to look good.
A guy says to her, "Wow, you look hot tonight!"  She can either take that two ways:  A.  as a compliment or B.  as a verbal "advance"
I guess it all depends on how it's said, who it's said to, and most importantly, by what rank to what (subordinate) rank (or civilian).
Obviously, it's all speculation as I wasn't there but you just have to wonder.......

Note that, for harrassment to have happened, esp verbal harrassment, the thing has to have been said, the receiver or a witness will have had to express their objection to what has been said AND the act to have continued.  "Wow you look hot" would not, in itself constitute an advance or harrassment.

IMHO

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Geo,

Could it not be, considering the "ought reasonably to have known" part of the definition in DAOD 5012-0?

(Of course, this is all hypothetical and not related to the incident in question WRT CFB Borden)

 

[geo]

well - that's an awful big "catchall".
in the example, it's suggested that the person has spent a lot of time and effort to get dolled up - passing a compliment should be intended to be flattering & not demeaning. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

well - that's an awful big "catchall".

Catchall's in the military?  Like this?   8)

in the example, it's suggested that the person has spent a lot of time and effort to get dolled up - passing a compliment should be intended to be flattering & not demeaning. 

But, for the sake of argument/debate, isn't that suggesting that if a male/female decides to get 'done up', that they then should have to listen to any and all comments directed their way, regardless?  IMO, I think of the term "lets be smart about being stupid" comes to mind, and "you look nice this evening" carries a different message to "wow you look hot!".

I believe that, in the way the policy is written, harassment does not have to have 'intent' behind it, hence the "ought reasonably to have known" wording in the DAOD. 

Having said that, "lowest level" still applies, and in the example we are discussing, the "you look hot" comment, if it was offensive to the recipient, the recipient is also responsible to inform the person making the comment they are not comfortable with the comment and ask that it not happen again. 

This is where the "know your audience" rule applies;  what might be offensive to one wouldn't make another bat an eye.

Again, all hypothetical discussion here.   ;D

 

[PMedMoe]

well - that's an awful big "catchall".
in the example, it's suggested that the person has spent a lot of time and effort to get dolled up - passing a compliment should be intended to be flattering & not demeaning. 

However, what would be more acceptable?  "You look very nice." or "Wow, you look hot!"

It's all in the context.  As Eye In The Sky stated, the "ought reasonably to have known" is the key thing.  I believe someone earlier stated that at his rank (and position) level, the latter statement would definitely be unacceptable.  

As far as people getting "dolled up" on a Monday, that would depend on the function, wouldn't it?

Yes, it says the women did not file a formal complaint, however, they did inform their CO.  Here's a quote from the DND/CF Harassment Prevention and Resolution Guidelines regarding the responsibilities of the RO (Responsible Officer):

d. intervening promptly to resolve, any apparent harassment situations that they become aware of, whether or not a complaint has been made;

 

[Edward Campbell]

The lesson here, I think is we you have to learn – all of us you, even senior officers – that the CF consists of members; we you are all colleagues and, despite rank and suit colour, we you are all equals – not ’objects’ of any kind.

Each of you must learn to treat every other member as a colleague. Each members is to be valued for his/her performance on the job – not objectified by sex appeal (male or female).

The system understand this; now it is up to all of you to do the same.

----------
P.S. We didn't do it (treat our colleagues properly) well, in fact we hardly did it at all, when I served. You need to be better than we were.

 

[Harris]

Captains (Army) would very seldom have a LCol as a Chief of Staff under them.....  ;D

I Norway I actually did have a German LCol working for me.  I was the Chief LO (Capt) and all of the countries were to send a Lt/Capt.  Germany sent a LCol.  COS said to carry on so I did.

 

[Gramps]

I Norway I actually did have a German LCol working for me.  I was the Chief LO (Capt) and all of the countries were to send a Lt/Capt.  Germany sent a LCol.  COS said to carry on so I did.

The person in question here is indeed a Capt(N).

 

[jollyjacktar]

I know his Son, nice young man, was on my ship.  We used to share the same meal table.  Did not say too much about his old man, but I did get the impression that he was somewhat grumpy.  At least as Father and Sons go.  And yes, his Dad is a Capt(N), Logistics.  His Son has just released, and I am posted anyway, so I won't have a chance to get his side of the story.  Still, not a good way to end a career and there are other members of the family who will be affected by this.  I am sorry to hear of it.

 

[jacksparrow]

There is a time and place for comments like that, and the mess is not one of them, considering the postion everyone is in. I am saying this as a guy, comments like "you look hot tonight, emphasis on HOT" are bound to get you in trouble either way.

Unless you are the person's boyfriend or husband, you can't utter words like that. There are times when one does have to keep their mouth SHUT! The military aside, if this was said in some outside company, am sure HR might be having a word with you as well if you were a manager and a female worker complained.

It's a GREY area that needs to be treaded lightly

Just to play Devil's Advocate, I wonder what verbal "advances" were made?  I have to say, from a female's point of view, I would really hate to be a male.

Picture this:

A guy is at the Mess (of whatever rank you choose) and a female is there, all dressed up.  Very nice, like she took some time to look good.

A guy says to her, "Wow, you look hot tonight!"  She can either take that two ways:  A.  as a compliment or B.  as a verbal "advance"

I guess it all depends on how it's said, who it's said to, and most importantly, by what rank to what (subordinate) rank (or civilian).

Obviously, it's all speculation as I wasn't there but you just have to wonder.......

 

[Jarnhamar]

What if someone who is in the CF posts something considered sexual harassing to another member of the CF on army.ca the forum?

Are they held accountable under military law?

 

[Trinity]

What if someone who is in the CF posts something considered sexual harassing to another member of the CF on army.ca the forum?

Are they held accountable under military law?

Well, Class B, C and Reg Force soldiers are always under the service codes... aren't they? Therefore
I would surmise yes.

Has anyone been reprimanded by the military for inappropriate conduct for posts on army.ca?  (not just sexual harassment)
There was one gentleman (photo tech) who got in trouble I believe... but I would need someone to clarify more. 

 

[kratz]

I am sure people have restrained posts and comments on the topic for many reasons.