Bring back the Brig?

[CallOfDuty]

  Hmm....last year I worked with a fella who was recently retired from the Navy, after 23 years of service.  He was always bragging to people about all the trouble he had gotten into over the years and about how when he went on OP APOLLO he was able to bring on board enough weed to supply himself and all his friends for the duration of the trip.  Also talked about being drunk all the time as well, and the numerous fights he'd been in. 
    I was hoping that his kind would be the minority in the Navy. :-\
 
Steve

 

[Bobbyoreo]

"Did you give any thought to the fact that they may in fact be doing something with this guy?  The wheels of to Justice System turn awful slowly at times, even in the Military.  Perhaps, you will be called in the future to appear at a Courts Martial as a witness for or against him."

Tell you the truth no, I never even thought about that but dont see anything happening. Might just be the fact that I have no faith in the system as I've seen first hand guys get away with this stuff. I just think things should be simple...you sign a piece of paper that says you WILL NOT DO DRUGS..Should be that simple, but I guess only in my little brain!!!

 

[Navalsnpr]

Listening to these last few posts I will say this..... if you know of actions that are taking place that break laws in the "Criminal Code of Canada" or the "National Defence Act"; then you should do your duty and reporting the situation to the appropriate chain of command. If memory serves me correctly pertaining to the "Zero Tolerance" rule for drugs, if you know about the incident and don't report it, you can be charged yourself.

To put this another way... How would you like to be unconscious at the bottom of a ladder in the AAMR which has a bilge fire and the person tasked with getting you out of that compartment is all freaked out because they were on some illegal substance.

Ships, Air Craft and the Field can, and are dangerous places because the nature of our job no one wants a pot head around.

So .... cut the pay back to $14,000 a year starting salary?  That won't encourage people to join the CF. 

Obviously $30K a year is enough to live on in Esquimalt and have enough left over for some extra-curricular activities... This thread has proven that.

 

[Melbatoast]

As for the comment that it is impossible to kick anyone out... Not at all... the possibility it there, its the supervisors jobs to ensure that everything is documented correctly. If documentation is correct, then it becomes very easy for the front door to swing the other way. Mind you the other options hopefully prevent release from happening... I'm speaking of Verbal Warning, Recorded Warning, C&P, Charges and Courts Marshall.

Yes on paper all that should work just fine.  But in reality, on a ship, I've never seen it work well.  There are too many places in the chain of command for it to stop or turn around, and far too many avenues for the member to fight the steps.  If the issue is urgent enough, like drugs, I have seen some things happen, but things that are less urgent but just as poisonous are not pursued vigourously or at all.  What happens if a member repeatedly fails an express test and takes no advantage of the subsequent training offered and continues to fail?  I saw this exact thing go on for almost three years - that same member is just as dangerous if he or she has to haul you out of an AAMR fire as someone messed up on drugs, probably even more so.  But nothing occurs because they can claim a medical condition, harassment, whatever.

The very subject was discussed with the Skipper in a candid moment over beers; he feels the same way you do and was shocked at how hard it is to actually turf someone.

 

[SHF]

For a flashback,

We had the same problem in the late 70s.  Drugs were rampant (all sorts).  Guys were slipping into the female quarteres and vice-versa.  Punishments were lenient (small fines mostly), and we all had that new found cash of $500 a month and the mess was close by.  These appear to be societal problems.  In the early 80s more guys went to DB but the problems persisted.  I don't have the answer but for newer folks, you are not facing anything new. 

The wheel turns.

Cheers

Bill

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I agree with a lot of what has been said. We have a problem in A block with vandalism too. Exactly what was said earlier is the problem these people are unsupervised and therefore no one is there to correct the problems. We've gone overboard with getting rid of duty watch folks...In Esquimalt they had the OOD on a cell phone at home for a while...but I think they corrected that.
There should be a duty MS, perhaps on each deck in A Block and Nelles. We have to cut down on the time that these folks are waiting in PATS. Or do some real training while in PATS to do with drill or tradition or something...anything other than playing solitaire and thinking up ways to get in trouble.
Our problem for years has been that come Friday afternoon everyone wants to take off. Ever driven around Naden or Stad on a Saturday....no body around...very lax security...Commissionaire at the gate barely glances at your ID and never looks at passengers ID at the gate at Stad.
We've got problems with theft at Stad too....purses being stolen from offices during working hours...equipment from offices and messes that aren't nailed down goes missing.
Security has to be beefed up for sure. Punishments have to be real and consequences have to be real for crimes committed. Officers and NCOs have to DO THEIR SWORN DUTY! even if that means some inconvenient paper work and time spent testifying at Courts Martial or, God forbid, "being unpopular" with the troops.

 

[Donaill]

Hello everyone, just a humble ab here wanting toadd my 2 cents worth as well. 

  I have had to deal with a room mate that is a nim rod and been charged for being so. In my short time in the Navy I have to say that the people I have met are mostly good people. No need to use the old standard of discipline on them. They get the job done quickly, when they can, and to a very good standard. They don't cause problems for many people and make the navy a friendly place to be. I don't mean that we should all be buddy buddy all the time, there is a time and place. 
  I do agree that the ones causing the problems should be punished in some way. Cracking down on everyone though may do more harm than good. Many of the people I know like the navy because of the relaxed atmosphere, when appropriate. I have noticed though that there are some people getting in that should have been clears signs of trouble from the get go. Either they are good BS'ers or someone slipped. People slipping s normal though.

Sorry about the rambling..I agree with Navy Sniper on a couple of points. I have seen more problems with the younger recruits than with the guys my age. I was a 37 year old recruit. Life experience has a way of making someone mellow out.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Hello everyone, just a humble ab here wanting toadd my 2 cents worth as well.   

   I have had to deal with a room mate that is a nim rod and been charged for being so. In my short time in the Navy I have to say that the people I have met are mostly good people. No need to use the old standard of discipline on them. They get the job done quickly, when they can, and to a very good standard. They don't cause problems for many people and make the navy a friendly place to be. I don't mean that we should all be buddy buddy all the time, there is a time and place. 
   I do agree that the ones causing the problems should be punished in some way. Cracking down on everyone though may do more harm than good. Many of the people I know like the navy because of the relaxed atmosphere, when appropriate. I have noticed though that there are some people getting in that should have been clears signs of trouble from the get go. Either they are good BS'ers or someone slipped. People slipping s normal though.

Sorry about the rambling..I agree with Navy Sniper on a couple of points. I have seen more problems with the younger recruits than with the guys my age. I was a 37 year old recruit. Life experience has a way of making someone mellow out.

I'm glad to hear your point of view. You are a mature entry though. There is an assumption that all who come in are mature just because they are old enough to get in and "shouldn't we treat them like adults?"
Well I have a 20 year old and a 17 year old son and they need a lot of direction and supervision in many aspects of their lives. The education system they have "endured" has told them that all values are relative...marijuana isn't necessarily a bad thing and their individual rights are more important than the collective good.
the Navy and the CF is a different culture....we do think that there are absolute values like honesty, integrity, duty and honour which one needs to cultivate and uphold. We do think that drugs are a bad thing...especially when you have the lives of your buddies and innocents in your hands (or at the business end of a C7) and that your needs as an individual sometimes need to take second place to the needs of the collective.
If we don't teach them that when they are early in their careers and make sure we employ discipline to enforce these values then we will lose our capability as a disciplined military.

 

[bbereziuk]

Well said.  The CF is not just a 'job' in which you pick up your pay check and expect to be left alone.  It is responsible for the defence of the country.  A fine defence we'd be if our soldiers and sailors were more concerned about their individual rights than the greater good should things go to crap and we're forced to deploy as a conventional wartime force.  Discipline is Key! Always!

 

[Donaill]

I agree with the above two statments. Schools do seem to be instilling the wrong type of values. Yes, I respect that an individual should have rights that should not be hindered. Such as the freedom of association, religion, and speach. There are times that people abuse those. Such as spreading hate messages. I believe that EVERYONE should be taught that sometimes it is better to work for the good of the greater whole. Such as working for a better envioroment.
  The military is a unique society in of itself. Discipline allows us to carry out our duty under levels of high stress, which sometimes causes problems later.
I am glad that i joined the military. I have been treated quite well, especially compared to some civi jobs I have had. I believe that younger folks should perhaps have a longer basic program to allow them time to adjust to a military life. Then again perhaps more care should be looked at the persons life experience. A 20 year old that has been on his or her own for a year or two may be more disciplined than a 25 year old that has been living at home.

So many variables.... No wonder the Recruiters have difficulty.

 

[M Feetham]

OK, couple of comments: first, drugs have been a problem in the CF off and on for as long as most people can remember, WW1 and 2  and Korea was Morphine addiction in the wounded. In the 70's it was free love and mind expanding drugs, of course some of it made its way into the forces. The 80's, 90's and today it is hardcore drugs and designer drugs. Most of the young recruits don't see the problem with Ecstatsy or pot/marijuana. The harder cases ar into coke and crack. One guy I sailed with about a year and a half ago tried to stab two of his wingers in the mess, in the end it came out he had a alcohol and coke problem. The drugs are there it is up to us as leaders to advise the kids and set the example.
Second: If the supervisors for the problem children keep up on their paperwork, Div notes in the navy. Then it is usually not a problem to have someone punted from the forces. Yes it can be a lengthy process, but if you dot your I's and cross your T's it can be done.
Third: I don't know for sure if it being applied to the forces in general but now here at St Jean the rules have changed for the express test. If a recruit fails the vo2 max ie the shuttle run, they are history. No re-test, no second chance, thanks for coming out have a nice life. So things are changing there.
Fourth: Birds on a ship can be a little difficult to maintain sometimes cause most of the mess decks (where we sleep for the army guys) have T.V, VCR. DVD and computers right there, so even if you have MUP once they have finished their muster and extra work, they almost never get extra drill. Also anyting after work hours is hard to do cause the PO2(SGT) is not allowed to leave the ship. We only have a limited amount of personnel on board for duty watches. At sea personnel don't muster cause they have watches they have to man. In foreign ports CO's tend not to have any type of disciplinary hearings cause then it messes up their port visit too. Extreme incidents not withstanding.
Yes there are problems with discipline, but the problem doesn't rest with just the young people coming into the forces, the senior personnel have to be the standard, if you slack off and get drunk all the time what are your subordinates going to do? Lead by example.
Thanks Marc

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

OK, couple of comments: first, drugs have been a problem in the CF off and on for as long as most people can remember, WW1 and 2  and Korea was Morphine addiction in the wounded. In the 70's it was free love and mind expanding drugs, of course some of it made its way into the forces. The 80's, 90's and today it is hardcore drugs and designer drugs. Most of the young recruits don't see the problem with Ecstatsy or pot/marijuana. The harder cases ar into coke and crack. One guy I sailed with about a year and a half ago tried to stab two of his wingers in the mess, in the end it came out he had a alcohol and coke problem. The drugs are there it is up to us as leaders to advise the kids and set the example.
Second: If the supervisors for the problem children keep up on their paperwork, Div notes in the navy. Then it is usually not a problem to have someone punted from the forces. Yes it can be a lengthy process, but if you dot your I's and cross your T's it can be done.
Third: I don't know for sure if it being applied to the forces in general but now here at St Jean the rules have changed for the express test. If a recruit fails the vo2 max ie the shuttle run, they are history. No re-test, no second chance, thanks for coming out have a nice life. So things are changing there.
Fourth: Birds on a ship can be a little difficult to maintain sometimes cause most of the mess decks (where we sleep for the army guys) have T.V, VCR. DVD and computers right there, so even if you have MUP once they have finished their muster and extra work, they almost never get extra drill. Also anyting after work hours is hard to do cause the PO2(SGT) is not allowed to leave the ship. We only have a limited amount of personnel on board for duty watches. At sea personnel don't muster cause they have watches they have to man. In foreign ports CO's tend not to have any type of disciplinary hearings cause then it messes up their port visit too. Extreme incidents not withstanding.
Yes there are problems with discipline, but the problem doesn't rest with just the young people coming into the forces, the senior personnel have to be the standard, if you slack off and get drunk all the time what are your subordinates going to do? Lead by example.
Thanks Marc

Athabaskan has already sent 3 home for disciplinary reasons....they are on a 6 month NATO till July...maybe the rest will get the message.
The rules are there it's up to the leaders to enforce em an lead by example as you say.
Took me two years to get rid of a problem child in my last posting but as you say you gotta do your paperwork...I did....and that person is no longer a member of her majesty's forces...Thank God.

 

[Messmom]

I remember the impact of seeing guys on birds in Nellies block wearing nothing but coveralls and laceless sneakers working in the galley before they headed back to cells for the night. Nothing like a real live example to give folks the idea.

 

[Naval Boarding Party]

I wonder how many of the discipline problems are alcohol related? I wonder if it is on par with the civilian demographics in each region? I wonder if all of the professional leaders making posts remember that it our duty........our duty......to counsel and mentor our subordinates to be the best sailors that they can be. Leading by example is great Marc. I am sure you could tell a few stories from the Athabaskan.

Folks, firm and speedy punishment is supposed to be used as a tool to correct unwanted behaviour. Tossing someone out at the first sign of trouble is irresponsible, unprofessional and dispassionate! It wasn't too long ago that many of us more experienced Sailors were the young Ordinary Seaman that were on their first run ashore in a foreign port. Think back to your first experiences and recall how you conducted yourself. We are all human. We are predisposed to make mistakes. That is how we learn...from our mistakes. Restraint and wisdom with little compassion should guide us to correct unwanted behaviour not exact revenge.

I think that the brig is an excellent idea. I regret that we aren't more firm with our Sailors and that we are not backed up by those above. Keep in mind that Admiral Mainguy investigated "Mutiny" a short time ago. It is part of our history and coming of age as a modern Navy. The Sailors of those days were not treated as they thought they should have been. Too much influence from Britannia and her traditions. Thank God that we got rid of the Cat-O-Nine Tails prior to their time.

I think that we can all agree that the old days of heading down to the Ship on a Wed, Thur evening to prime up for the weekend  just doesn't happen anymore. The mess just isn't used as much as it used to be. Whether it is just evolution or a result of other factors I cannot say. But things have changed with respect to mess life alongside in homeport. We as a Navy are changing too. Some of us don't like the changes that we see going on around us. Some of us would like to see a more professional Navy. This is only natural coming from professional Sailors that want to maintain an institution that they believe in.

Bring back the brig. Make it known to recruits early in their career. Use it as a corrective measure not as the tool of revenge. Treat them like professionals and adults and they will soon act as such.

Cheers,
Shep

 

[Springroll]

Fantastic post, Naval Boarding Party!
Mine and my husband's thoughts, exactly! 

 

[Naval Boarding Party]

Merci,

regret a couple of typographic errors.

Cheers

 

[Messmom]

I completely agree NBP, but the sad truth is that "firm and speedy punishment" is all but impossible in today's navy. We had a youngster 14 hours adrift for a Saturday duty watch. The MPs could do nothing for us. Without the ad nausium JAG paperwork they could not even knock on his door to tell him to get his butt to work. Of course we would have to find out where he was living since all of his contact info was wrong. By 1800 we had his P2, P1, the Cox'n, the XO and CO all involved in this on a Saturday. The final tally a month later was 14 days birds and 2 weeks pay. And this at least the third charge for this kid that I knew of in the year he had been with us.

Now I am all for not allowing the system to ride rough shode over those that don't really understand it, but that is our job as senior NCOs to prevent that. The days when a Cox'n could give a kid a choice between being run or accepting what the Cox'n had in store for him are long gone. Mores the pity. Instilling discipline now seems more about filling out form CF-XXX than straighting out a possible asset to the forces.

 

[Navalsnpr]

The MPs could do nothing for us. Without the ad nausium JAG paperwork they could not even knock on his door to tell him to get his butt to work. Of course we would have to find out where he was living since all of his contact info was wrong. By 1800 we had his P2, P1, the Cox'n, the XO and CO all involved in this on a Saturday.

I heard rumors out of Army bases where that personnel who were late for work were in cells that same day, and remained in cells for 2-3 weeks.

Just wondering if anyone from a "hard-core" army base can comment on this??