Bringing back "Double Dipping"

[Humphrey Bogart]

Not to mention that sometimes the first posting for a pilot isn't to an operational squadron, but right back to the school. It actually makes sense from a training perspective to post experts on the Harvard back to the school to train others on the Harvard, because if they go learn to fly Cyclones for 6 years, they might be a bit rusty on the Harvard if they don't go back as instructors until after a few years on an operational air frame.

That being said, it still seems odd. You join the CAF as a pilot to participate in missions and be operational, but instead you spend 4 years at RMC, 3 years learning to be a pilot, then get posted back to the school as an instructor for 3 years. So, from the time you sign up to the time you actually start actually get out of the training system to doing core business could be 10 years. :S

Actually, I had a friend who was a pilot, failed out of being a pilot after numerous attempts, spent a while waiting for a re-muster to go through, finally got a re-muster to ACSO, and by the time he finished training as an ACSO and was OFP, it had been almost 12 years since he joined the CAF. 12 years from signing up to OFP. Yikes.

Thinking about m. own OT for a bit:

It will have taken me over two years to finish three phases of training in NWO by the time I'm done Phase 4, assuming I don't fail that course. I'm lining up to go Submarines so there is another year or two of training not to mention I won't be NOPQ qualified for another what, two years?  So four or five years to become remotely useful  8)

I'll then have four or five years left at which point I can retire.  As the highest paid Subbie in the CAF, it's a good deal!

I'll reserve judgement on the Navy training until I'm done Phase 4 but from my perspective, it could be shorter, how much more is up for debate.  What could also happen is better synchronization of courses.  Eight month wait between Phase 3 and 4 as ours got cancelled due to lack of candidates.

 

[Lumber]

Thinking about m. own OT for a bit:

It will have taken me over two years to finish three phases of training in NWO by the time I'm done Phase 4, assuming I don't fail that course. I'm lining up to go Submarines so there is another year or two of training not to mention I won't be NOPQ qualified for another what, two years?  So four or five years to become remotely useful  8)

I'll then have four or five years left at which point I can retire.  As the highest paid Subbie in the CAF, it's a good deal!

I'll reserve judgement on the Navy training until I'm done Phase 4 but from my perspective, it could be shorter, how much more is up for debate.  What could also happen is better synchronization of courses.  Eight month wait between Phase 3 and 4 as ours got cancelled due to lack of candidates.

The thing about NWO and OFP and NOPQ is this.

Yes, technically you won't be OFP until you get your NOPQ qual, roughly 2 years after being posted to a ship. However, unlike some other trades, the non-NOPQ qualified subbies  are actually crucial members of the ship's company. They aren't just trainees; they fill highly important roles, including: 2OOW, FixO, QRT I/C, FP Watch Sups, A3 Evidence Gathering Officer (sometimes even A1 Boarding Officer), Safety Officers, etc.

So, while you're not technically qualified as a watchkeeper or as an NWO, you're definitely integral to ship's ops, and definitely very, very busy.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The thing about NWO and OFP and NOPQ is this.

Yes, technically you won't be OFP until you get your NOPQ qual, roughly 2 years after being posted to a ship. However, unlike some other trades, the non-NOPQ qualified subbies  are actually crucial members of the ship's company. They aren't just trainees; they fill highly important roles, including: 2OOW, FixO, QRT I/C, FP Watch Sups, A3 Evidence Gathering Officer (sometimes even A1 Boarding Officer), Safety Officers, etc.

So, while you're not technically qualified as a watchkeeper or as an NWO, you're definitely integral to ship's ops, and definitely very, very busy.

I actually enjoy being in the muck, being in the training system again is a nice dose of humility and somewhat of a character building exercise for me.  Plus I get to do fun stuff, like I'm probably going on the Ship's Diver Course in September. Nobody wants to do it and I'm fit and healthy, so I put my hand up.  I'll get to learn to scuba dive for free, get some more bling for the uniform and also get a potential secondary duty for myself. Those opportunities were definitely closed to me when I was in the Army still.

Believe it or not, I've actually bucked the Navy trend and regained a lot of fitness since I OT'ed and have lost 20lbs since January.  I'm on PAT Platoon now and they leave me to my own devices so I've taken the time to basically spend my entire days training.  Yesterday I biked 25km as part of my commute, did an hour of yoga in the morning and then did a HIIT circuit in the afternoon. 

Looking forward to finishing NWO IV and getting on with the business.

 

[Pusser]

Interesting discussion.

Pension doesn't get any better than 70%. No matter who ( CAF or OMERS ) is paying it.

I GTFO the day mine maxed out. 

Never worked again. Never will.

My plan exactly and I have one of those qualifications that is in high demand and very short supply.  The guy I relieved in my current position (who is of similar vintage to me) was retiring in order to take a Public Service job.  When I asked him why, he told me that he was still healthy and figured he could work another ten years.  I thought to myself that that's precisely the reason to retire earlier WHILE you're still healthy.  In 97 days, I intend to retire and enjoy not having to work everyday. 

Because I have special skills, I have frequently been asked if I intend to get a Public Service or Defence Contractor job.  The trouble with those though is that all of them expect you to show up everyday and work!  Although I won't shut the door on short term or part-time work on MY terms, I have no intention of ever working full time again.  My plan is to work on my home-based business (which is essentially a hobby with attitude) and mentorture sub-lieutenants as a Class A Reservist.  It's worth noting that my Class A pay + my pension will likely exceed my current income.

 

[TechCrmn]

I also do not understand what the big deal about double dipping, it's a win-win for the CAF and the member.

Scenario 1: I retire at age 25 collect my 50% pension and then go work at Home Depot for $17 instead of being hired to fill an open reservist position on base.
Result: CAF pays out my pension. They will also need to promote someone or move them from another location/position in order to fill the vacant reservist position. They would also theoretically need to hire on a new reservist or reg force member and train them, since the moment I left the CAF they are technically down one soldier.

Scenario 2: I retire at age 25 collect my 50% pension and then I am hired to fill the open reservist position on base making my regular pay $30+.
Result: CAF pays out my pension. No one needs to be posted or moved because I filled the position, and a new recruit who needs training and experience is not required because I was retained in the CAF, and it is still at the same strength as when I "retired"

As you can see, Scenario 1 results in the member making less money and the CAF losing money due to having to train a new recruit. In both scenarios the CAF has to pay the same pension and the same salary for the reservist position so these costs are 0 sum.

Can someone please explain to me what is wrong with this? and why the CAF ever got rid of double dipping in the first place?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

My time witnessing the "double-dippers" was when I was at a CBGHQ 2002-2006ish.  We had both NCM and Officer's who were 'retired' and on CL B (some of them B annotated A) service.

What did they bring?  Decades of experience in their trades, connections to key people in HQs and TEs who were still Reg's, etc.  Their pension earnings, they earned and paid for them.  Their CL A and B earnings...would have been paid to regardless as someone would have filled that position.

So, what ended up happening?  They were made to take a 30ish day break (usually in the summer after their 2 weeks summer leave).  Technically no one was working that desk during that break but...the pace at the HQ was minimal then during the summer training season.  There were 3 of them (NCMs) in the G3 shop; they'd stagger their leave/break over the summer so one of them was in house at any given time.

The last one I knew of personally was a Reg Frce MWO;  his position was changed from a Reg MWO position to a Res MWO (maybe CWO) position.  He entered the competition, was chosen and put in his 30 day release.  Shortly thereafter, the Res Force pension was given life IIRC and then it all changed...

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

, and a new recruit who needs training and experience is not required because I was retained in the CAF, and it is still at the same strength as when I "retired"

And I see it as another youth can't get a job that has a future.  So he tries to raise a family on that $17  job you should be filling.
My opinion only of course....

PS:...looking forward to a couple days a week at Home Depot in 2 more years.

 

[Navy_Pete]

That's not really how it works though; the younger person is recruited for one of the entry level positions, the older person is being retained in a position that usually requires 15-20 years of experience.  We are bleeding out people at all levels faster than we can recruit, but even if we exceed our annual intake, doesn't mean that the WO+ and Capt+ class A and B jobs will magically be filled.  People double dipping does not mean that people aren't being recruited.

There may be a few very small specialist trades where the upward movement depends a lot on someone's retirement, but that's the exception instead of the rule, and policy should be based on the most common situations with enough latitude to deal with specific situations as req.  This was another kneejerk sledgehammer approach where a scalpel to carve out the abuse/downside would maybe have been a better solution.  :2c:

 

[TechCrmn]

And I see it as another youth can't get a job that has a future.  So he tries to raise a family on that $17  job you should be filling.
My opinion only of course....

PS:...looking forward to a couple days a week at Home Depot in 2 more years.

I would completely agree that old timers shouldn't be taking jobs from today's youth. Lets be honest though, the forces have been hurting for recruits for a long time now and any youth that meets the eligibility requirements and wants to join the Reg F or Res F will likely get picked up.

All I'm really saying is that if the CAF has the option to retain someone with 25+ yrs of experience in the job and they can retain that person with no additional cost besides paying their wages (which they would have to pay someone else), than this seems like a no brainer, vice losing them to Home Depot lol

P.S. Home Depot is also on my list of places I need to submit an application to post retirement

 

[quadrapiper]

There may be a few very small specialist trades where the upward movement depends a lot on someone's retirement

Could see a policy linking retention in - what - "regular career stream" positions as a returned retiree linked to availability of replacements in the tiers below to address those trades.

Expect the value of the returned-retired isn't usually in "line" roles in their trade or service, but in staff, instructor, and policy roles linked to it, or in e.g. PRes or COATS roles that're (at least on the COATS side) often going begging for actually-qualified members (all kinds of clerk, especially).

 

[Loachman]

And I see it as another youth can't get a job that has a future.  So he tries to raise a family on that $17  job you should be filling.

I've been a Casual Public Servant doing the same job that I was doing pre-punting for over three years now. There is only one other way to fill this position: pull somebody out of a cockpit, and we don't have enough people in cockpits with sufficient experience as it is without putting one of them in my seat. It takes a long time to get somebody through the training system, a few more years to upgrade that person to Aircraft Captain, and more to get him or her various leadership levels. I'm a cheap way of filling this position, which requires a rare area and level of experience that I blundered into over many years.

PS:...looking forward to a couple days a week at Home Depot in 2 more years.

That doesn't appear to be as simple as one might think.