British Prisoner Abuse
- Thread starter karpovage
- Start date
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I‘m not saying these pictures are false, but what I am going to say is that they do look staged...
No faces in any of the photos, but the fact that the photos were taken would indicate that whoever was taking them didn‘t have that much sense/didn‘t have much fear of being caught.
From the point of view of somone who‘s been involved in photography and video, the fact that the alleged prisoner is wearing a shirt with an iraqi flag on it sets off alarm bells, loud ones... you‘ve got a bag over the mans head, so the viewer can‘t indentify that the man is iraqi... so you‘ve got to indicate it somehow... symbolisim...
Am I saying incidents like this don‘t actually happen? No. They could well happen. They shouldn‘t, but it‘s possible.
Am I saying these photos are staged? No, but there are a number of alarm bells set off...
No faces in any of the photos, but the fact that the photos were taken would indicate that whoever was taking them didn‘t have that much sense/didn‘t have much fear of being caught.
From the point of view of somone who‘s been involved in photography and video, the fact that the alleged prisoner is wearing a shirt with an iraqi flag on it sets off alarm bells, loud ones... you‘ve got a bag over the mans head, so the viewer can‘t indentify that the man is iraqi... so you‘ve got to indicate it somehow... symbolisim...
Am I saying incidents like this don‘t actually happen? No. They could well happen. They shouldn‘t, but it‘s possible.
Am I saying these photos are staged? No, but there are a number of alarm bells set off...
- Reaction score
- 2
- Points
- 410
BBC report.
Doubt cast on Iraq torture photos
The paper claims British soldiers handed over the photos
An investigation is under way into claims that British troops humiliated and assaulted an Iraqi prisoner before throwing him from a moving lorry.
The claims were made in the Daily Mirror which carried photos allegedly taken during the man‘s ordeal.
Sources close to the regiment said to be involved have told the BBC they are not convinced the pictures are genuine.
Tony Blair says that if they are authentic it is "completely and totally unacceptable".
However the BBC‘s defence correspondent Paul Adams says sources close to The Queen‘s Lancashire Regiment believe many aspects of the photographs are extremely suspicious.
He says they believe the pictures may not have been taken in Iraq.
They believe the rifle is an SA80 mk 1 - which was not issued to troops in Iraq.
They say soldiers in Iraq wore berets or hard hats - and not floppy hats as in the photos.
They also believe the wrong type of Bedford truck is shown in the background - a type never deployed in Iraq.
Mr Blair said if there had been any abuse it was "exceptional", and should not detract from the good work being done by UK armed forces in Iraq.
However he stressed if the photos were genuine it was totally unacceptable.
"We went to Iraq to get rid of that sort of thing, not to do it," he added.
Investigation
Earlier Armed Forces Minister Adam Ingram agreed the pictures were "appalling" if they were genuine.
They "besmirch the good name of the armed forces," he said.
Military police are conducting an investigation into the photos which appear to show a soldier using violence and urinating on a captive.
Mr Ingram said this investigation had to be given time.
Pictures showing American troops humiliating Iraqi prisoners, with a hooded and naked prisoner standing on a box with wires attached to his genitals, also generated outrage earlier this week.
US President George W Bush vowed that those responsible would be "taken care of".
There is no place in our regiment for individuals capable of such appalling and sickening behaviour
The Queen‘s Lancashire Regiment
Military shaken by torture probe
Arab media fury
Mr Ingram said there was no "culture of abuse" in the British Army despite the fact that five separate inquiries into maltreatment are under way.
He admitted: "If these allegations are true, they are appalling, they are despicable and there can be no justification for them at all."
And he said the inquiry by the Royal Military Police‘s Special Investigations Branch would "not leave any stone unturned".
Those who are opposed to the coalition‘s occupation of Iraq would employ "full exploitation of these incidents", Mr Ingram said.
The Mirror says the pictures were handed over by British soldiers from The Queen‘s Lancashire Regiment who claimed a rogue element in the British Army was responsible for abusing prisoners and civilians.
Speaking on condition of anonymity, the soldiers told the paper no charges were brought against the unnamed captive.
They allege that during his eight-hour ordeal he was threatened with execution, his jaw broken and his teeth smashed.
The images have already been seen in the Middle East
After being beaten and urinated on, he was driven away and dumped from the back of a moving vehicle, the soldiers claimed, unaware if he was dead.
The reason for making the photos public was, they said, to show why the US-UK coalition was encountering such fierce resistance in Iraq.
Army spokesman Roger Goodwin, on behalf of The Queen‘s Lancashire Regiment, said there was "clearly some form of link to the regiment".
"But the precise form of that link, including whether the soldiers involved in the alleged atrocities were members of the QLR, needs to be established.
He added: "There is no place in our regiment for individuals capable of such appalling and sickening behaviour.
"The sooner they are exposed and ejected from the regiment, the better."
The regimental secretary, retired Lt Col John Downham, said: "We are furious that these people, whoever they turn out to be, have already besmirched our hard-earned good name and let down the many hundreds of QLR soldiers whose outstandingly successful tour in Basra was recognised by no fewer than 21 honours and awards."
The British have previously enjoyed a relatively positive image
In a press conference, Sir Mike Jackson, Chief of General Staff, said: "If proven, the perpetrators are not fit to wear the Queen‘s uniform and they have besmirched the Army‘s good name and conduct."
Ahmed al-Sheik, editor-in-chief of Arab TV news channel, said the photographs would outrage Arabs around the world.
"These scenes are humiliating not only to the Iraqis, but to every Arab citizen around the world."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3677311.stm
Doubt cast on Iraq torture photos
The paper claims British soldiers handed over the photos
An investigation is under way into claims that British troops humiliated and assaulted an Iraqi prisoner before throwing him from a moving lorry.
The claims were made in the Daily Mirror which carried photos allegedly taken during the man‘s ordeal.
Sources close to the regiment said to be involved have told the BBC they are not convinced the pictures are genuine.
Tony Blair says that if they are authentic it is "completely and totally unacceptable".
However the BBC‘s defence correspondent Paul Adams says sources close to The Queen‘s Lancashire Regiment believe many aspects of the photographs are extremely suspicious.
He says they believe the pictures may not have been taken in Iraq.
They believe the rifle is an SA80 mk 1 - which was not issued to troops in Iraq.
They say soldiers in Iraq wore berets or hard hats - and not floppy hats as in the photos.
They also believe the wrong type of Bedford truck is shown in the background - a type never deployed in Iraq.
Mr Blair said if there had been any abuse it was "exceptional", and should not detract from the good work being done by UK armed forces in Iraq.
However he stressed if the photos were genuine it was totally unacceptable.
"We went to Iraq to get rid of that sort of thing, not to do it," he added.
Investigation
Earlier Armed Forces Minister Adam Ingram agreed the pictures were "appalling" if they were genuine.
They "besmirch the good name of the armed forces," he said.
Military police are conducting an investigation into the photos which appear to show a soldier using violence and urinating on a captive.
Mr Ingram said this investigation had to be given time.
Pictures showing American troops humiliating Iraqi prisoners, with a hooded and naked prisoner standing on a box with wires attached to his genitals, also generated outrage earlier this week.
US President George W Bush vowed that those responsible would be "taken care of".
There is no place in our regiment for individuals capable of such appalling and sickening behaviour
The Queen‘s Lancashire Regiment
Military shaken by torture probe
Arab media fury
Mr Ingram said there was no "culture of abuse" in the British Army despite the fact that five separate inquiries into maltreatment are under way.
He admitted: "If these allegations are true, they are appalling, they are despicable and there can be no justification for them at all."
And he said the inquiry by the Royal Military Police‘s Special Investigations Branch would "not leave any stone unturned".
Those who are opposed to the coalition‘s occupation of Iraq would employ "full exploitation of these incidents", Mr Ingram said.
The Mirror says the pictures were handed over by British soldiers from The Queen‘s Lancashire Regiment who claimed a rogue element in the British Army was responsible for abusing prisoners and civilians.
Speaking on condition of anonymity, the soldiers told the paper no charges were brought against the unnamed captive.
They allege that during his eight-hour ordeal he was threatened with execution, his jaw broken and his teeth smashed.
The images have already been seen in the Middle East
After being beaten and urinated on, he was driven away and dumped from the back of a moving vehicle, the soldiers claimed, unaware if he was dead.
The reason for making the photos public was, they said, to show why the US-UK coalition was encountering such fierce resistance in Iraq.
Army spokesman Roger Goodwin, on behalf of The Queen‘s Lancashire Regiment, said there was "clearly some form of link to the regiment".
"But the precise form of that link, including whether the soldiers involved in the alleged atrocities were members of the QLR, needs to be established.
He added: "There is no place in our regiment for individuals capable of such appalling and sickening behaviour.
"The sooner they are exposed and ejected from the regiment, the better."
The regimental secretary, retired Lt Col John Downham, said: "We are furious that these people, whoever they turn out to be, have already besmirched our hard-earned good name and let down the many hundreds of QLR soldiers whose outstandingly successful tour in Basra was recognised by no fewer than 21 honours and awards."
The British have previously enjoyed a relatively positive image
In a press conference, Sir Mike Jackson, Chief of General Staff, said: "If proven, the perpetrators are not fit to wear the Queen‘s uniform and they have besmirched the Army‘s good name and conduct."
Ahmed al-Sheik, editor-in-chief of Arab TV news channel, said the photographs would outrage Arabs around the world.
"These scenes are humiliating not only to the Iraqis, but to every Arab citizen around the world."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3677311.stm
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
Its all over the news here in Australia all day yesterday. Like the Somalia thing all over again.
Both pics of some female US MPs posing in front of a cam with naked PWs, plus several UK pics of a PW getting pisssed on, and butt stroked. Not good, and paints a bad pic of us ‘occupiers‘.
Well, its bad, and I dont condone such behavior, but at least they were not killed, and their charred remains were not hung from a bridge!
Lets find out who they are, and charge them accordingly. Poor leadership and poor dicsipline is one thing, but we are all adults, and we know right from wrong. Even an 8yr old knows that.
Both the US and UK PW abuse, has really stuffed things up, and the damage will go a long way. Just imagine what Al-Jazerra is doing with all of this.
I hope this does not get the current US hostages and other hostages killed or tortured by their captors.
Regards,
Wes
Both pics of some female US MPs posing in front of a cam with naked PWs, plus several UK pics of a PW getting pisssed on, and butt stroked. Not good, and paints a bad pic of us ‘occupiers‘.
Well, its bad, and I dont condone such behavior, but at least they were not killed, and their charred remains were not hung from a bridge!
Lets find out who they are, and charge them accordingly. Poor leadership and poor dicsipline is one thing, but we are all adults, and we know right from wrong. Even an 8yr old knows that.
Both the US and UK PW abuse, has really stuffed things up, and the damage will go a long way. Just imagine what Al-Jazerra is doing with all of this.
I hope this does not get the current US hostages and other hostages killed or tortured by their captors.
Regards,
Wes
Wes, you hit it on the head. At least we don‘t dismember the bodies, drag them around, burn and hang them - or better yet, as in Daniel Pearl‘s case (Afghanistan) -behead them on live video.
It‘s still wrong - the abuse of the prisoners - but who knows if they are the Iraq Fedeehen terrorists or Al Queda elements as opposed to Iraqi infantrymen. These guys might even had a hand in murdering 3 million of their own Iraqi citizens under the Hussein regime in the past 30 years. My opinion is that those "insurgents" who mutilate or cowardly blow up American or coalition troops or workers ought to get a good beating and some humiliation, then prompty executed so they don‘t have to go through our pathetic American injustice system. In fact if they were handed over to a couple of fire and police stations in NYC I think they would experience a form of abuse that would pale in comparison to standing naked, getting laughed at or getting pissed on. People tend to forget these types of "fighters" don‘t give a rat‘s *** about wasting innocents or infidels. A good *** whoopin is in order! boo hoo if their feelings are hurt.
Deep down inside I think most Americans, and politicians all say it‘s a bad thing - the abuse - but really feel this is what happens when you make our idiot list. I bet they really don‘t see this as a huge issue.
It‘s still wrong - the abuse of the prisoners - but who knows if they are the Iraq Fedeehen terrorists or Al Queda elements as opposed to Iraqi infantrymen. These guys might even had a hand in murdering 3 million of their own Iraqi citizens under the Hussein regime in the past 30 years. My opinion is that those "insurgents" who mutilate or cowardly blow up American or coalition troops or workers ought to get a good beating and some humiliation, then prompty executed so they don‘t have to go through our pathetic American injustice system. In fact if they were handed over to a couple of fire and police stations in NYC I think they would experience a form of abuse that would pale in comparison to standing naked, getting laughed at or getting pissed on. People tend to forget these types of "fighters" don‘t give a rat‘s *** about wasting innocents or infidels. A good *** whoopin is in order! boo hoo if their feelings are hurt.
Deep down inside I think most Americans, and politicians all say it‘s a bad thing - the abuse - but really feel this is what happens when you make our idiot list. I bet they really don‘t see this as a huge issue.
- Reaction score
- 2
- Points
- 410
Karpo,yes let‘s get the buggers but let‘s not lower our selves to their level,which sad to say has been done by the latest.
This is biggest Anti. Coalition Coup they have just been waiting for to prove that alls you are there for is oil.
Remember Col.Tim Collin‘s speech he gave his men.
"We go to liberate not to conquer. We will not fly our flags in their country. We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their own. Show respect for them.
"There are some who are alive at this moment who will not be alive shortly. Those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send. As for the others I expect you to rock their world. Wipe them out if that is what they choose. But if you are ferocious in battle remember to be magnanimous in victory.
"Iraq is steeped in history. It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham. Tread lightly there. You will see things that no man could pay to see and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis. You will be embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing. Don‘t treat them as refugees for they are in their own country. Their children will be poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you.
"If there are casualties of war then remember that when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day. Allow them dignity in death. Bury them properly and mark their graves.
"It is my foremost intention to bring every single one of you out alive but there may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign. We will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back. There will be no time for sorrow.
"The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful destruction. There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of **** for Saddam. He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done. As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity.
"It is a big step to take another human life. It is not to be done lightly. I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts, I can assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them. If someone surrenders to you then remember they have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home to their family.
"The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please.
"If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer. You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest for your deeds will follow you down through history. We will bring shame on neither our uniform or our nation.
"[Regarding the use by Saddam of chemical or biological weapons] It is not a question of if, it‘s a question of when. We know he has already devolved the decision to lower commanders, and that means he has already taken the decision himself. If we survive the first strike we will survive the attack.
"As for ourselves, let‘s bring everyone home and leave Iraq a better place for us having been there.
"Our business now is north."
Speech given by Lieutenant Colonel Tim Collins, 20 March 2003, Kuwait, near the Iraqi border.
Pres. Bush was so impressed he has this speach hanging in the Oval Office.
This is biggest Anti. Coalition Coup they have just been waiting for to prove that alls you are there for is oil.
Remember Col.Tim Collin‘s speech he gave his men.
"We go to liberate not to conquer. We will not fly our flags in their country. We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their own. Show respect for them.
"There are some who are alive at this moment who will not be alive shortly. Those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send. As for the others I expect you to rock their world. Wipe them out if that is what they choose. But if you are ferocious in battle remember to be magnanimous in victory.
"Iraq is steeped in history. It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham. Tread lightly there. You will see things that no man could pay to see and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis. You will be embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing. Don‘t treat them as refugees for they are in their own country. Their children will be poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you.
"If there are casualties of war then remember that when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day. Allow them dignity in death. Bury them properly and mark their graves.
"It is my foremost intention to bring every single one of you out alive but there may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign. We will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back. There will be no time for sorrow.
"The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful destruction. There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of **** for Saddam. He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done. As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity.
"It is a big step to take another human life. It is not to be done lightly. I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts, I can assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them. If someone surrenders to you then remember they have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home to their family.
"The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please.
"If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer. You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest for your deeds will follow you down through history. We will bring shame on neither our uniform or our nation.
"[Regarding the use by Saddam of chemical or biological weapons] It is not a question of if, it‘s a question of when. We know he has already devolved the decision to lower commanders, and that means he has already taken the decision himself. If we survive the first strike we will survive the attack.
"As for ourselves, let‘s bring everyone home and leave Iraq a better place for us having been there.
"Our business now is north."
Speech given by Lieutenant Colonel Tim Collins, 20 March 2003, Kuwait, near the Iraqi border.
Pres. Bush was so impressed he has this speach hanging in the Oval Office.
- Reaction score
- 11,379
- Points
- 1,160
As we‘ve seen in a few videos posted here, Canadians americans british and all other allied forces have stupid soldiers. Guys who get caught up in the moment, let their excitement get the better of them and do something stupid like pile naked prisoners together and take "funny" pictures of it. Guys who don‘t act professional. This isn‘t anything new. it happens now, it happened in ww2 and it happened 2000 years ago.
Difference between us and them is that with us we see it as wrong and we take steps to expose this behavior and correct it. Find the dummies involved and hammer em.
I think it‘s safe to say the pictures about the "british troops" are obviously fake.
Difference between us and them is that with us we see it as wrong and we take steps to expose this behavior and correct it. Find the dummies involved and hammer em.
I think it‘s safe to say the pictures about the "british troops" are obviously fake.
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
The Brits ones might be a hoax - wrong Mark of SA80s in the photos and some other evidence suggest the photos were faked.
In a way, I think that is even worse than if the had been real soldiers doing this for real.
In a way, I think that is even worse than if the had been real soldiers doing this for real.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
I dont think the pics are faked, but time will tell. We have to realise that, yes our troops too are capable of such stupid things (in which the EN will use sucessfully as a dirty great big gaint propaganda tool, along with anti-war westerners).
Were the Somalia pics faked? NO. Other similar events have taken place in all wars on both sides.
I knew a US medic from the Viet Nam war who practised emergeny "trach‘s" on PWs. Some lived some died, and he did not give a shyte. Back in 1979 when we discussed his war in detail, we laughed it off, but in reality was that right? No. He simply had de-humanised the EN, and though of them not as human beings, and that might be the case here too( I say might).
Nor will I forget the Argentine ears neatly tucked away in a small tin, that a friend of mine (ex 2 Para) had.
Recently in Australia, after a WW1 Gallipoli vet had died, his family found a wooden box, and in it was the mumified head of a Turkish soldier, with a .303 entry wound in the upper head. The head was returned to the Turkish embassy, and sent back to Turkey.
The de-humanising of the enemy goes back to the beginning of war. Fact. Whether its names like Huns, Mehmets, Fritz, Charlie, Boxheads, Mongrels, Reds, Japs, Skinnys, Gooks, Sand Ni__ers, its all a fact of life, and they refer to us a wewstern animals, so it works on both sides. Another one of the insame facts of war.
As for the L85A2 or ‘SA80‘, or ‘A2‘ as its known, I have worked on both types (as recently as Nov 2003), and the details are not good enough on the photos to tell. I cant see A2 or the HK logo, or the colour coded springs, etc, or other improvements, such as the cocking handle.
Older rifles unmodified are still in service, and might not be issued to Cbt Arms, but CSS, and alike may have them (so I was told my a Royal Marine who was in Basra less than a yr ago).
Perhaps the Iraqi flag was added, but we will see.
I reckon calling them fakes is a cop out, failing to believe or understand that such things can happen by our so called politically correct. armies of the west.
My 2 bob worth.
Cheers,
Wes
Were the Somalia pics faked? NO. Other similar events have taken place in all wars on both sides.
I knew a US medic from the Viet Nam war who practised emergeny "trach‘s" on PWs. Some lived some died, and he did not give a shyte. Back in 1979 when we discussed his war in detail, we laughed it off, but in reality was that right? No. He simply had de-humanised the EN, and though of them not as human beings, and that might be the case here too( I say might).
Nor will I forget the Argentine ears neatly tucked away in a small tin, that a friend of mine (ex 2 Para) had.
Recently in Australia, after a WW1 Gallipoli vet had died, his family found a wooden box, and in it was the mumified head of a Turkish soldier, with a .303 entry wound in the upper head. The head was returned to the Turkish embassy, and sent back to Turkey.
The de-humanising of the enemy goes back to the beginning of war. Fact. Whether its names like Huns, Mehmets, Fritz, Charlie, Boxheads, Mongrels, Reds, Japs, Skinnys, Gooks, Sand Ni__ers, its all a fact of life, and they refer to us a wewstern animals, so it works on both sides. Another one of the insame facts of war.
As for the L85A2 or ‘SA80‘, or ‘A2‘ as its known, I have worked on both types (as recently as Nov 2003), and the details are not good enough on the photos to tell. I cant see A2 or the HK logo, or the colour coded springs, etc, or other improvements, such as the cocking handle.
Older rifles unmodified are still in service, and might not be issued to Cbt Arms, but CSS, and alike may have them (so I was told my a Royal Marine who was in Basra less than a yr ago).
Perhaps the Iraqi flag was added, but we will see.
I reckon calling them fakes is a cop out, failing to believe or understand that such things can happen by our so called politically correct. armies of the west.
My 2 bob worth.
Cheers,
Wes
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
I must agree that, after looking at the pictures, I am horrified at the intentional abuse of PW‘s but feel that there is something slightly odd about them...
Could it be that the AQ are learning to use western media as a weapon of war?
Slim
Could it be that the AQ are learning to use western media as a weapon of war?
Slim
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
Thanks for the history lesson Wes, but I was going by the latest news reports from the UK. You may want to read them and talk directly about the subject at hand rather than rattling stuff off the top of your head.
There are also photos showing a truck type that was not deployed to Iraq, the use of bush caps whereas either berets or helmets are being worn in Iraq, etc.
I can‘t confirm or deny any of this but I can deal directly with what the articles in the UK press are saying.
You may want to read them.
There are also photos showing a truck type that was not deployed to Iraq, the use of bush caps whereas either berets or helmets are being worn in Iraq, etc.
I can‘t confirm or deny any of this but I can deal directly with what the articles in the UK press are saying.
You may want to read them.
Ex Ranger Instructor
Full Member
- Reaction score
- 48
- Points
- 330
This has to do with the American incident vice the British one, but I‘ll post it here anyway:
Associated Press
BAGHDAD, Iraq â †Seven U.S. soldiers have been reprimanded in connection with the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners carried out by guards at Baghdad‘s notorious Abu Ghraib prison, a senior military official said on Monday.
On the orders of Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, six of the soldiers â †all officers and noncommissioned officers â †have received the most severe level of administrative reprimand in the U.S. military, the official said on condition of anonymity.
A seventh officer was given a more lenient admonishment.
The military official said he believed investigations of the officers were complete and they would not face further action or court martial. However, the reprimands could spell the end of their careers.
Another six U.S. military police are facing criminal charges.
Allegations of abuse at Abu Ghraib prison, on Baghdad‘s western outskirts, exploded onto the world stage this past week after CBS‘ "60 Minutes II" broadcast images allegedly showing Iraqis stripped naked, hooded and being tormented by their U.S. captors.
An internal U.S. Army report found that Iraqi detainees were subjected to "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses," according to The New Yorker magazine.
The official said the military is telling its servicemen to be on the lookout for backlash stemming from the abuse and is briefing troops on how to discuss the issue in conversation with Iraqis.
"We‘ve made it very clear to commanders and all the way down to the lowest soldier, ‘You‘ve got to get out there and explain what happened here,‘" the official said.
Does anyone else find it odd that they only received the "most severe level of administrative reprimand in the U.S. military"? Wow, that‘s really setting a harsh example. C&P. Somehow, I think Canadian discipline would be a bit harsher, and rightly so.
Associated Press
BAGHDAD, Iraq â †Seven U.S. soldiers have been reprimanded in connection with the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners carried out by guards at Baghdad‘s notorious Abu Ghraib prison, a senior military official said on Monday.
On the orders of Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, six of the soldiers â †all officers and noncommissioned officers â †have received the most severe level of administrative reprimand in the U.S. military, the official said on condition of anonymity.
A seventh officer was given a more lenient admonishment.
The military official said he believed investigations of the officers were complete and they would not face further action or court martial. However, the reprimands could spell the end of their careers.
Another six U.S. military police are facing criminal charges.
Allegations of abuse at Abu Ghraib prison, on Baghdad‘s western outskirts, exploded onto the world stage this past week after CBS‘ "60 Minutes II" broadcast images allegedly showing Iraqis stripped naked, hooded and being tormented by their U.S. captors.
An internal U.S. Army report found that Iraqi detainees were subjected to "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses," according to The New Yorker magazine.
The official said the military is telling its servicemen to be on the lookout for backlash stemming from the abuse and is briefing troops on how to discuss the issue in conversation with Iraqis.
"We‘ve made it very clear to commanders and all the way down to the lowest soldier, ‘You‘ve got to get out there and explain what happened here,‘" the official said.
Does anyone else find it odd that they only received the "most severe level of administrative reprimand in the U.S. military"? Wow, that‘s really setting a harsh example. C&P. Somehow, I think Canadian discipline would be a bit harsher, and rightly so.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
It would be nice to think that, but I don‘t think so. If we look at our record of prisoner abuse in Somalia, there were several people involved in prisoner abuse (according to Bercuson‘s book, "Significant Incident") that got away with administrative punishment. Kyle Brown went to court martial, and Clayton Matchee was heading there before his hanging incident, but those two were directly involved with Shidane Arone‘s death. Major Tony Seward, who ordered the abuse of prisoners as a deterrent (OMFG!) wound up with a measly 90 days and was tossed out of the army.
The individuals mentioned in the article may lose their careers, and there are still courts martial to come. I don‘t think this is any more lenient than our record.
- Reaction score
- 11,379
- Points
- 1,160
It may not be more lenient then our record. (Involving the somalia case which we‘ve all heard a BILLION times) but what do you think would happen if something like this happened now?
You can bet an example would be made out of them and it wouldn‘t be pretty. Yes it happend int he past when the military was bending over backwards trying to keep stuff hidden from public but the politicans aren‘t going to let that happen now.
You can bet an example would be made out of them and it wouldn‘t be pretty. Yes it happend int he past when the military was bending over backwards trying to keep stuff hidden from public but the politicans aren‘t going to let that happen now.
Ex Ranger Instructor
Full Member
- Reaction score
- 48
- Points
- 330
"...the reprimands could spell the end of their careers".
I think the operative word here is could. As opposed to should, will, etc.
The comparisons between this incident and the Somalia affair are inevitable. However, I don‘t think that Somalia presents us with an accurate tool for predicting how another such incident would be dealt with today, except in that it underlines what we "now" know is the requirement for harsh action against those responsible for committing such offences. I think that today, precisely because of the Somalia incident, such an offence would be dealt with very harshly indeed.
I see your point about how the various characters involved in Somalia did not neccessarily get what was coming to them, but their punishments, as listed by you, are still more serious than those handed down in this case. "Most serious administrative action" is a nice way to dress it up so as to sound bad, but it‘s still just a recorded warning and C&P, unless the US system of administrative action is substantially different than our own. Come on: you get RW & C&P for being a drunk, not for getting your country involved in an international incident.
I think the operative word here is could. As opposed to should, will, etc.
The comparisons between this incident and the Somalia affair are inevitable. However, I don‘t think that Somalia presents us with an accurate tool for predicting how another such incident would be dealt with today, except in that it underlines what we "now" know is the requirement for harsh action against those responsible for committing such offences. I think that today, precisely because of the Somalia incident, such an offence would be dealt with very harshly indeed.
I see your point about how the various characters involved in Somalia did not neccessarily get what was coming to them, but their punishments, as listed by you, are still more serious than those handed down in this case. "Most serious administrative action" is a nice way to dress it up so as to sound bad, but it‘s still just a recorded warning and C&P, unless the US system of administrative action is substantially different than our own. Come on: you get RW & C&P for being a drunk, not for getting your country involved in an international incident.
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
I rather think that everything the Army has done after Somalia has been a serious attempt to put that incident behind us. The CF Code of Conduct, for example, which I posted in another thread, ensures that everyone knows what is acceptable and not.
The troops in Somalia were operating according to the specific ROEs set up for them - when the CO tells you to rough up prisoners and shoot between the skirt and the flip-flops, well...one thing leads to another. I‘ve not served operationally so perhaps those that have or are can tell us whether or not the post-Somalia deployments have had stricter ROEs and more information given to soldiers re: the treatment of prisoners and civilians.
Were a Somalia like event to happen again, I‘d have to believe it would be much more seriously looked at, especially given the context of what is happening today in Iraq.
The troops in Somalia were operating according to the specific ROEs set up for them - when the CO tells you to rough up prisoners and shoot between the skirt and the flip-flops, well...one thing leads to another. I‘ve not served operationally so perhaps those that have or are can tell us whether or not the post-Somalia deployments have had stricter ROEs and more information given to soldiers re: the treatment of prisoners and civilians.
Were a Somalia like event to happen again, I‘d have to believe it would be much more seriously looked at, especially given the context of what is happening today in Iraq.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
This sure casts doubt on the veracity of those pix:
13 reasons why this picture may not be all it seems
By Anthony France
(Filed: 03/05/2004)
An expert in Army interrogation last night cast serious doubts on the authenticity of pictures published by the Daily Mirror of British troops allegedly torturing an Iraqi prisoner.
In a detailed analysis, Simon Treselyan, who served for 19 years training the SAS in interrogation methods, concludes that the pictures are highly suspicious and could be fake.
The former officer, who raises 13 serious questions about the pictures, said last night: "My conclusion is that someone has faked the photographs. For whatever reason, they set out to deceive.
"I believe these pictures are not of an Iraqi and they were not taken in Iraq.
"They are nothing like the pictures released last week of American troops abusing troops which were genuine and quite rightly caused revulsion around the world."
He raised the following 13 points and gave his expert opinion on each:
1. Why do the pictures appear so static, with no obvious signs that a vicious assault is taking place?
Mr Treselyan said: "Part of my job in the Army was to debrief victims of torture. If you were being attacked or hit in the groin by a rifle, the body goes into a foetal position to protect yourself.
"In one picture, the man‘s legs are actually wide open and he is making no attempt to stop the attack. Considering what he is going through, I would also expect him to be sweating and be covered in dirt. Why is there no blood?"
2. Why does the soldier appear to be armed with an SA80 Mk1 rifle which was not issued to British troops in Iraq?
"That weapon is no longer issued by the British Army and was certainly not issued to troops in Iraq. They were given the SA80 A2. I think the SA80 Mk1 rifle is now only used by Royal Logistics Corps and the Territorial Army.
"Also the condition of the rifle is odd because it is so shiny. The SA80 is mainly plastic and, as a result, it scratches easily. The ones I had lasted only a week. After that they looked like they had been in service 30 years.
"I think the weapon in the pictures is a reproduction weapon, possibly bought through battle orders in the UK."
3. Why is there no serial number on the rifle‘s foregrip?
"Every soldier has an identifying number given to him by the armoury which is painted on to the foregrip of the rifle in yellow paint. This is so the soldier can identify his own weapon very quickly without having to look at the engraved serial number."
4. Why has the soldier‘s webbing, where he would store ammunition for the rifle, been left open - against Army regulations?
"That is one of the worst things you could do. If he was to jump out of a vehicle and run in battle, all of his ammunition would fall out of his webbing.
"From day one, if you are ever caught with your pouch open, you would get hauled up and fined. This tells me the person in the pictures is not a soldier.
"Also, why are his ammunition pouches empty if he is an operational soldier? Normally, he would have three ammunition magazines in each pouch and you could see the bulge."
5. Why has the barrel of the rifle been left uncovered?
"That certainly does not happen in desert conditions. Sand is an abrasive. If it gets inside your rifle barrel, the damage makes shots less accurate.
"If the armourer caught you doing this, you would be court martialled. Every soldier I know uses either an issue barrel cover - like a pen top - or a condom to stop sand and moisture getting inside."
6. Why do the pictures appear to have been taken in the back of a type of Bedford truck that was never deployed in Iraq?
"It does not look like the standard four-ton vehicle that was in operation in Iraq. Another thing I noticed is how clean the truck is for one being used on the front line."
7. Why are the soldier‘s boots laced in a criss-cross fashion?
"British Army soldiers lace their boots straight, not diagonally. It has always been so.
"Any Second World War veteran will tell you that during the campaign in the Far East, they used to creep up on sentries and feel their lacing to find out if they were Japanese. If it was criss-cross, they would kill them. If they were straight they were British."
8. Why is the alleged torture victim wearing a potato sack made of hessian over his head?
"The British Army has set procedures for interrogating suspects. The hood is to disorientate the prisoner.
"You would never use a hessian sack because it is made out of a woven material which allows the suspect to see through it. The British Army use hoods made out of the same black material as darkroom curtains."
9. Why is the prisoner wearing a T-shirt with the Syrian flag on the front?
"According to the Daily Mirror‘s report, the torture victim comes from the Shia stronghold of Basra.
"He would be killed within two minutes on the streets of Basra wearing a T-shirt which would show support for the hated Ba‘ath party. It‘s a bit like wearing a British National Party shirt in Brixton, the heart of black Britain.
"Why is he wearing underpants? Most Iraqis I met didn‘t wear any. I notice the prisoner is not as hairy as I would expect him to be and he appears well-fed for an Iraqi."
10. Why is the soldier wearing a floppy hat?
"These hats are not used operationally in Iraq. Soldiers wear either helmets or berets - especially if they are working outdoors. I never saw any colleagues wearing a floppy hat in operation."
11. Why is the soldier‘s face not visible?
"The idea of a trophy picture is to have something that you can keep for ever. In the ones I saw from the Falklands, in which people took pictures of themselves with decapitated Argentinians, their faces could clearly be seen. The pictures which came out of America last week were classic trophy pictures."
12. Is the picture where the soldier puts a rifle to the prisoner‘s head against normal procedure?
"You never, ever let your weapon get that close to a prisoner. It is standard procedure that no weapon goes within 3ft of a prisoner. Remember, these guys are suicidal and wouldn‘t think twice about making a grab for it."
13. Why does the soldier have clean hands and clothes?
"The soldier‘s hands are very soft - like an office worker. Why, if he has been in combat, are his hands and fingernails not covered in dirt?"
Mr Treselyan, 45, was a warrant officer in the British Army‘s Intelligence Corps until he took voluntary redundancy in October 1994. During his career he trained the SAS and America‘s CIA in interrogation techniques and specialised in the debriefing of torture victims.
Last night Col Bob Stewart, who commanded British forces in the Balkans, also raised doubts about the authenticity of the pictures.
He voiced concerns at the effect the pictures would have in the Arab world. "What happens to the next British soldier taken hostage?"
13 reasons why this picture may not be all it seems
By Anthony France
(Filed: 03/05/2004)
An expert in Army interrogation last night cast serious doubts on the authenticity of pictures published by the Daily Mirror of British troops allegedly torturing an Iraqi prisoner.
In a detailed analysis, Simon Treselyan, who served for 19 years training the SAS in interrogation methods, concludes that the pictures are highly suspicious and could be fake.
The former officer, who raises 13 serious questions about the pictures, said last night: "My conclusion is that someone has faked the photographs. For whatever reason, they set out to deceive.
"I believe these pictures are not of an Iraqi and they were not taken in Iraq.
"They are nothing like the pictures released last week of American troops abusing troops which were genuine and quite rightly caused revulsion around the world."
He raised the following 13 points and gave his expert opinion on each:
1. Why do the pictures appear so static, with no obvious signs that a vicious assault is taking place?
Mr Treselyan said: "Part of my job in the Army was to debrief victims of torture. If you were being attacked or hit in the groin by a rifle, the body goes into a foetal position to protect yourself.
"In one picture, the man‘s legs are actually wide open and he is making no attempt to stop the attack. Considering what he is going through, I would also expect him to be sweating and be covered in dirt. Why is there no blood?"
2. Why does the soldier appear to be armed with an SA80 Mk1 rifle which was not issued to British troops in Iraq?
"That weapon is no longer issued by the British Army and was certainly not issued to troops in Iraq. They were given the SA80 A2. I think the SA80 Mk1 rifle is now only used by Royal Logistics Corps and the Territorial Army.
"Also the condition of the rifle is odd because it is so shiny. The SA80 is mainly plastic and, as a result, it scratches easily. The ones I had lasted only a week. After that they looked like they had been in service 30 years.
"I think the weapon in the pictures is a reproduction weapon, possibly bought through battle orders in the UK."
3. Why is there no serial number on the rifle‘s foregrip?
"Every soldier has an identifying number given to him by the armoury which is painted on to the foregrip of the rifle in yellow paint. This is so the soldier can identify his own weapon very quickly without having to look at the engraved serial number."
4. Why has the soldier‘s webbing, where he would store ammunition for the rifle, been left open - against Army regulations?
"That is one of the worst things you could do. If he was to jump out of a vehicle and run in battle, all of his ammunition would fall out of his webbing.
"From day one, if you are ever caught with your pouch open, you would get hauled up and fined. This tells me the person in the pictures is not a soldier.
"Also, why are his ammunition pouches empty if he is an operational soldier? Normally, he would have three ammunition magazines in each pouch and you could see the bulge."
5. Why has the barrel of the rifle been left uncovered?
"That certainly does not happen in desert conditions. Sand is an abrasive. If it gets inside your rifle barrel, the damage makes shots less accurate.
"If the armourer caught you doing this, you would be court martialled. Every soldier I know uses either an issue barrel cover - like a pen top - or a condom to stop sand and moisture getting inside."
6. Why do the pictures appear to have been taken in the back of a type of Bedford truck that was never deployed in Iraq?
"It does not look like the standard four-ton vehicle that was in operation in Iraq. Another thing I noticed is how clean the truck is for one being used on the front line."
7. Why are the soldier‘s boots laced in a criss-cross fashion?
"British Army soldiers lace their boots straight, not diagonally. It has always been so.
"Any Second World War veteran will tell you that during the campaign in the Far East, they used to creep up on sentries and feel their lacing to find out if they were Japanese. If it was criss-cross, they would kill them. If they were straight they were British."
8. Why is the alleged torture victim wearing a potato sack made of hessian over his head?
"The British Army has set procedures for interrogating suspects. The hood is to disorientate the prisoner.
"You would never use a hessian sack because it is made out of a woven material which allows the suspect to see through it. The British Army use hoods made out of the same black material as darkroom curtains."
9. Why is the prisoner wearing a T-shirt with the Syrian flag on the front?
"According to the Daily Mirror‘s report, the torture victim comes from the Shia stronghold of Basra.
"He would be killed within two minutes on the streets of Basra wearing a T-shirt which would show support for the hated Ba‘ath party. It‘s a bit like wearing a British National Party shirt in Brixton, the heart of black Britain.
"Why is he wearing underpants? Most Iraqis I met didn‘t wear any. I notice the prisoner is not as hairy as I would expect him to be and he appears well-fed for an Iraqi."
10. Why is the soldier wearing a floppy hat?
"These hats are not used operationally in Iraq. Soldiers wear either helmets or berets - especially if they are working outdoors. I never saw any colleagues wearing a floppy hat in operation."
11. Why is the soldier‘s face not visible?
"The idea of a trophy picture is to have something that you can keep for ever. In the ones I saw from the Falklands, in which people took pictures of themselves with decapitated Argentinians, their faces could clearly be seen. The pictures which came out of America last week were classic trophy pictures."
12. Is the picture where the soldier puts a rifle to the prisoner‘s head against normal procedure?
"You never, ever let your weapon get that close to a prisoner. It is standard procedure that no weapon goes within 3ft of a prisoner. Remember, these guys are suicidal and wouldn‘t think twice about making a grab for it."
13. Why does the soldier have clean hands and clothes?
"The soldier‘s hands are very soft - like an office worker. Why, if he has been in combat, are his hands and fingernails not covered in dirt?"
Mr Treselyan, 45, was a warrant officer in the British Army‘s Intelligence Corps until he took voluntary redundancy in October 1994. During his career he trained the SAS and America‘s CIA in interrogation techniques and specialised in the debriefing of torture victims.
Last night Col Bob Stewart, who commanded British forces in the Balkans, also raised doubts about the authenticity of the pictures.
He voiced concerns at the effect the pictures would have in the Arab world. "What happens to the next British soldier taken hostage?"
