Browning 9mm

[Linc]

Its my understanding that this is still the current ‘standard issue‘ sidearm in the CF, although Im aware that SF and Naval Boarding parties use the Sig 9mm. Any input as to how these pistols compare with eachother (reliability, stopping pwr,etc) and with the Baretta 9mm, now US standard issue or the older Colt 1911 .45?

 

[Troopasaurus]

ok the GP-35 or FN high power is canadas sidearm for the military however JTF-2 and the bording parties as you said use the sig sauer 9mm this is manly for saftey reasons they are both excellent weapons as for the US they use the 92f beretta it has 2 rounds more to a clip than the pistols mentioned above but is know to have a defective slide and some of them break off the gun when firing not nice the most notable story of this is a navy seal when the slide came clear off and hit him in the face but the police and all other countries report no such problems so maybe its just someone not likeing american military personell hope that helps

:cam:

 

[portcullisguy]

My god Aurora, ever use punctuation? That was a tough read!

Anyway, my two cents on the whole issue sidearm deal... I personally would prefer a simple, reliable firearm in a calibre that has stopping power and reliability.

A Glock or H&K .45ACP, full sized handgun, makes an appropriate choice for military use, and the same platform can be used for SF and boarding parties, requiring no new gunsmithing training, etc.

Of course, there are problems with my suggestion: The guns are way too expensive. .45ACP isn‘t the NATO standard. The guns would be too large for most women and anyone else with small hands. I have big hands, and my H&K USP40 is nearly too big ... I use my index finger for the magazine release on the right side, instead of the thumb for the left side mag release, because my thumb doesn‘t reach it as easily on the left.

 

[Harry]

Well, just my two cents worth. The Brownings we have, err, I used to carry. Were originally manufactured by Inglis, of sewing machine fame.

I will always reflect fondly of my Hi-Power packing days. But in all reality, I have graduated so to speak and can not believe the military hasn‘t done away with it. The Sig, nice platform, I was one of the first guys to train others on it and to be blunt, never liked it. Give me a Glock anyday for CQB.

I understand that there are morons in the military who are still against a round in the spout for the Sig‘s et al.

Good to know the dinosaur troopers still exist. Don‘t really care to debate the intricacies of the weapons, because at the end of the day, the intent has always been to replace the Browning with the Sig. Like any other train in CF motion, debate is futile, you will be assimilated.

Have a nice week end all.

UBIQUE :blotto:

 

[Linc]

Sure but would a Glock hold up in field conditions like Afghanistan or elsewhere with the dust, mud and general abuse of life in the trenches? They strike me as being somewhat delicate in that respect.

 

[portcullisguy]

Ok, I have fired Glocks, and no since I don‘t own one, I can‘t comment on it‘s ability to take abuse.

From everything I‘ve read, it is a simple tool, easy to use, clean, and maintain, has a good size capacity, and is quite durable.

If I ever did own one, of course, I wouldn‘t be burying it in sand or whatever to test it. However, I‘ve heard from people who have played with them that it DOES fire under water, it will put up with relentless abuse, etc. It has loose tolerances, however, and is not a match target weapon. I wouldn‘t recommend it for IPSC, then, but clearly this kind of accuracy isn‘t needed in a military sidearm.

No, I am not a Glock saleman.

Personally, I‘d pick the H&K USP40, like the one I own, or the USSOCOM cousin. However, at the end of the day, when you really need a sidearm, you are in the **** anyway, and I am sure you just want one that works.

 

[Harry]

I have carried the Glock-19 in conditions similar to Afganistan and it saw varied levels of dirt contamination, adverse weather. Applied direct abuse (banging around in armoured vehicles and my favourite-helicopters avoiding little puffs of trailing smoke).

The Glock is a safe, solid weapon. I heard all kinds of horror stories about slide probs, sights detaching, the list is about two pages long. None,of these happened.

We had some folks with some S&W‘s .40‘s there who had assorted probs associated with weather, dirt and ammo shortages. If anyone wants to by me a couple of beers, I can tell the story of the pocket Makarovs.

We also carried some high end H&K products and I had tried to convince the powers that be to let us trial some H&K hand guns, no luck.

Should I find myself in some little dirt hole again, my request will be for a Glock19 or 23. Most likely a 19 for ease of cross use ammo.

:mg:

 

[Linc]

Thanx for all the input.

So this sort of goes back to my original question: what is wrong with the current Browning model other than the fact that it‘s ‘old‘?

 

[Harry]

It is just that. In it‘s day it was one of the kings of the 9mm world.

Today for CQB and other high end operations it lacks the functionality required for quick shot placement.

It is a single action safety, not the best weapon in the world to carry a round in the spout. To awkward to release the safety etc, faster to rack a round.

The OPP Tactics and Rescue teams had some Brownings that had been heavily modified and rebuilt in the late ‘80‘s early 90‘s in order to accomadate a first round out of the spout. But at the end of the day they would have saved a lot of time and money to buy off the shelf.

Today we have a number of very good double action safety systems out there. Rack a round, and apply safety, voila, good to go. Then there is my fav, the Glock, for those who have truly used it, you can understand.

It comes down to the safety system. The Browning is a good solid shooter, just lacks in modern day features. Like comparing an original Porche 911 to a 2002 model, similar but so different under the hood and in the cabin.

 

[Coniar]

The sig is used by the USSS isnt it? I thought it was know for its smaller size and accuracy, mabey Im thinking of a different pistol...

Coniar

 

[portcullisguy]

Linc, I believe one of the draw backs of the Browning, besides its aged functionality and single-action, is that it is right-handed only, if I recall. It would require an after market armourer to convert to left hand. It has many moving parts, and this can mean more things to break & replace, although I understand the Browning is actually quite reliable.

The Glock, like so many modern pistols, is ambidexterous, in addition to all its other benefits mentioned earlier.

 

[Harry]

Portcullisguy, thanks for the boot in the backside.

Duh, I am left handed, how quickly we forget. Nothing burned my backside more than having a dino on the range make me do IA‘s and Safeties right handed and switch to left to shoot my trusty sewing machine gun.

I had many an RSO chastise me shooting lefty on the long guns, but seeing as how I was a solid shot, I was left alone. In 85, 86 and 87, I was on the Bge small arms team, but never went national or higher because of the lefty BS. The same for Biathlon, as a cadet and later in my early career, I was a top shot, but the lefty politics played through.

It took me a long time to get the point across about learning to do everything properly with my left in the event I ever found myself at a gun fight audition. When I got to the elevated position of RSO, I put in a memo with supporting documents, etc supporting it.

I guess the copy of the police report regarding an Ontario Constable found dead got the point across. He was found with a single gunshot to the head. He had spent casings in his hand and pocket. It was ascertained that he been taught from day one Shooting 101 to pick up brass after each drum was expended from his six shooter, reload and carry on. Never got to the reload portion it seemed.

It was believed that under extreme stress during an armed confrontation, he reacted in the manner he was trained. Hence I got the point across WRT changing hands on the range etc, especially when I used a Lefty Low ride holster.

UBIQUE :sniper:

 

[BillP]

The SIG is an excellent replacement for the Browning High Power. The HP is an excellent design, yet it‘s just an old design, that is more than surpassed by the Sig line. Many SF units,Gov‘t agencies worldwide trust the Sig, moreso than any other current pistol(except for the Glock, which seems to have cornered the Police market!) But compared to the Browning, the SIG is superior in terms of its S/A-D/A operation, well placed controls,internal safety mechanism, and ease in being used by left handed shooters. I have owned a Browning High Power, Glock(M22), and now currently own a SIG226(9mm). Over the Browning, the Sig is extremely reliable out of the box; comes with better sights, internal safety mech.,smoother single/double action trigger, and the decocker mech. that allows you to drop the hammer safely, prior to holstering the pistol. The Browning is a very good gun, but as already stated in previous posts it‘s dated, the current issue pistols are old, have been re-tooled many times, and the functionality isn‘t as user friendly as the SIG, or even the Glock for that matter! The Navy boarding teams are using, I believe, the SIG225(9mm. single stack) JTF(SIG226, plus whatever else they want!)
It will be sad to see the Browning go, it has served Canada very well for decades, but it‘s age, and current advances has put it in a disadvantage to other pistols.

 

[portcullisguy]

(OT...) BillP, are you sure you weren‘t talking about our PM when you said, it‘s "aged" and "time to go"... lol

 

[BillP]

Portcullisguy,
Not really, I have much higher regard for the Browning HP 9mm, than for the PM. At least when the HP is finally retired, it will be known for decades of loyal service to the CF, the PM‘s retirement will be known for anything but that!
LOL

 

[Coniar]

so are there any other resonable options besides the sig to replace the browning??? I I dont know sidearms to well so Im curious
And its nice to see someone from eastern Canada poke fun at the PM

Coniar

 

[Harry]

A nowhere topic, but for what it‘s worth. The Glock 19 is probably the best bang for the buck and field reliability.

Get used to the Sig though. :mg:

 

[mfeamer]

My two cents on the topic is that the SIG is probably the best choice. It is already in the system, and is a good, reliable weapon in all conditions. I carry a P229 in .40 S&W every day, in all kinds of weather. In seven years, it has never malfunctioned despite only being thoroughly cleaned about three times a year. My version is a DAO (double action only) no external safeties to worry about, no decocking levers - always one up the spout ready to go at a moment‘s notice. :cam:

 

[armd_recce]

Had an Int Sgt who is also big time into small arms pass me some interesting info this summer. There‘s a study underway to replace the Hi Power, and they are looking at 4 options; keep it as is, replace with a PDW (like the FN P90, HK PDW), replace with a 5.56mm weapon (perhaps like a C8 or even shorter) or replace with another pistol.
He printed it off a DIN site, sorry it was months ago and I probably couldn‘t find it again. You know how the DIN is, I think it was buried waaaaay back in a hidden link from the CDS biography page that isn‘t listed anywhere else =)
I do recall it was an entity *like* DCIEM doing the trial, but not DCIEM itself, if that jogs anyone‘s memory.
And agreed Matt, Sig is an excellent pistol IMHO. I have a P220 in .45, and it is a model of simplicity and reliability. 4 main parts and less than 10 sec to field strip. I‘d prefer the P220/226 with the decock lever and the option of SA.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I wouldn‘t mind seeing the C7 replaced with C8s.

Is the glock 19 the version of the glock that has a larger magazine and is semi- and fully automatic?
(like the baretta 93f)