C3 Howitzer Replacement

[daftandbarmy]

Biggest issue with a missile system. Training area and range limits. 1AD had those issues, Petawawa ranges and safety areas were maxed out for any live fires.

AA Gun systems, how big of range do you need to operate in and how much becomes restricted air space?

That's exactly why some (smart) armies from first world countries maintain long term contracts with certain third world countries whose range area/ land use rules are 'different'

 

[Rifleman62]

Shilo had, at the most southern end, had an air defence range.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Shilo had, at the most southern end, had an air defence range.

They also have these, which is a conflict I believe....

The Burrowing Owl was once a common summer resident of the Canadian prairies. Since 1987, the Burrowing Owl population has declined over 96%. It's estimated that between 500 and 800 owl pairs currently breed in Canada. In Manitoba, the population has declined from over 100 pairs in the early 1980s to under 10 in 2012.

The owl's decline has been attributed to changes in the prairie landscape. Over 75% of our native grassland has been cultivated and 40% of our wetlands have been lost. The remaining grassland areas in Manitoba and Canada are often heavily fragmented which has reduced available suitable habitat for Burrowing Owls to nest.

Home

www.mborp.ca

 

[Rifleman62]

Yes, Endangered Species on DND land is a very big issue for the DND Environmental Dept. Each Base has an Public Service Enviro O. A couple yearly National wide conferences, plus Division conferences to "discuss". A big Dept.

Army Safety at the time was a couple of people, focused on industrial safety rather than field safety.

You would be surprised at the number of Endangered Species on DND land, let alone what is considered i.e. grassland, other birds, butterflies etc.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Because the army training areas are some of the least impacted areas, acting as habitat refuges. Now they get punished for the sins of others.

 

[FJAG]

Shilo had, at the most southern end, had an air defence range.

Gagetown, Suffield and Cold Lake will all work for that. They served in the past. My guess is Wainwright too.

 

[Kirkhill]

I disagree, simply the potential for a disaster doesn’t mean you are having one. That said, people get insurance for a reason BEFOREHAND.

That said there is a reason insurance companies have fine print... The umbrella is only available when the sun is shining.

 

[Kirkhill]

A twin powered 25mm towed AA gun with optics and thermals and Manpad simulators for the Reserves would be very doable right now. That would help fill the SHORAD gap and we could also produce them for Ukraine at the same time.

And the 35mm cannon have ammunition that actually works for that role too...

20 mm x 139 Multipurpose Tracer Self-Destruct - Nammo

www.nammo.com

20 mm x 139 Multipurpose Tracer Self-Destruct​

The 20 mm x 139 Multipurpose ammunition with tracer and self-destruct device is designed to defeat a broad spectrum of targets, ranging from all kinds of soft skinned air and ground targets up to light armored and semi-hard targets. The tracer gives the shooter target correction information and the self-destruct device minimizes the risk for collateral damage. The hardened steel body with explosive filling gives significant penetration, blast, incendiary and fragmentation effects. The pyrotechnical initiation chain gives a natural delay ensuring all effects are delivered inside the target.

25mm MK2 MPT-SD Multipurpose Tracer-Self Destruct

The MK2 MPT-SD was developed for air-defense and surface/shipboard roles, providing for optimum terminal effects against light armored targets.

www.gd-ots.com

25mm x 137 MK2 MPT-SD​

Multipurpose Tracer-Self Destruct​

The 25mm x 137 MK2 MPT-SD was developed for air-defense and surface/shipboard roles, providing for optimum terminal effects on all classes of aircraft, helicopters, surface vessels and light armored vehicles. The MK2 uses the demonstrated multipurpose technology to optimize on-target effects and provide substantial terminal ballistics improvements over standard HEI ammunition.

Armor penetration, blast, fragmentation, and incendiary effects behind the plate

Advantages:​

• Fully interoperable in 25mm x 137 gun systems to include the M242, GAU-12/U, KBA, and ADEN 25
• Ballistic match to standard 25mm Bushmaster ammunition including M792 HEIT-SD and M793 TP-T

Before we go and swap out all our M242s couldn't we just take a look at the Fire Control System and the available ammunition possibilities?

And if we still have the GDF-005s why wouldn't those have been reclaimed from storage?

 

[Kirkhill]

The 25mm Bushmaster cannon has no round that would work for Anti-Air effectively that won't cause major issues on misses.
You could shoot HEI-T, but any misses are going to land and cause major issues -- plus the 25mm FCS isn't useful for engaging targets like that. The Prefragmented radar proxy fuzed ammunition that is being marketed for that has such a terrible payload that no one had bothered with it.

You need a system designed for that role - the CAF has had the 35mm Skyguard systems previously - and frankly should have pulled them out of mothballs around 1 year ago...
GDLS would be better suited to build a 35mm GepAV off the LAV hull, with a FCS and Radar Targeting Link.
Sure that won't do the PRes any good - but...

And yes, I saw this.

 

[NavyShooter]

Canada is more likely to crack out a bunch of WW2 20mm Oerlikon's and mount them up than we are to do anything else...

 

[Maxman1]

They also have these, which is a conflict I believe....

The Burrowing Owl was once a common summer resident of the Canadian prairies. Since 1987, the Burrowing Owl population has declined over 96%. It's estimated that between 500 and 800 owl pairs currently breed in Canada. In Manitoba, the population has declined from over 100 pairs in the early 1980s to under 10 in 2012.

The owl's decline has been attributed to changes in the prairie landscape. Over 75% of our native grassland has been cultivated and 40% of our wetlands have been lost. The remaining grassland areas in Manitoba and Canada are often heavily fragmented which has reduced available suitable habitat for Burrowing Owls to nest.

Home

www.mborp.ca

I heard the Hinterland Who's Who theme while reading this.

 

[KevinB]

20 mm x 139 Multipurpose Tracer Self-Destruct - Nammo

www.nammo.com

25mm MK2 MPT-SD Multipurpose Tracer-Self Destruct

The MK2 MPT-SD was developed for air-defense and surface/shipboard roles, providing for optimum terminal effects against light armored targets.

www.gd-ots.com

Before we go and swap out all our M242s couldn't we just take a look at the Fire Control System and the available ammunition possibilities?

It’s still not a good round for CUAS.
The FCS required for AD work is monumentally different than its current role.

And if we still have the GDF-005s why wouldn't those have been reclaimed from storage?

Bingo…
That right there should be a burning question.

 

[GK .Dundas]

What can I say I have an odd obsession with obsolete gear . I still think the old universal carrier should resurrected use it as a Javelin vehicle . How about a quad Polsten mount for 30 mm m-230 ?

 

[markppcli]

What can I say I have an odd obsession with obsolete gear . I still think the old universal carrier should resurrected use it as a Javelin vehicle . How about a quad Polsten mount for 30 mm m-230 ?

What does a universal Carrie’s give my AT det that a quad doesn’t ?

 

[Kirkhill]

It’s still not a good round for CUAS.
The FCS required for AD work is monumentally different than its current role.

But it is not impossible - and I have to believe that, if it fits, then it would be cheaper than replacing all our cannons and inventory of ammunition.

UTAAS Tank and Anti-Aircraft System | Saab

The Universal Tank and Anti-Aircraft System (UTAAS) is a versatile sight and fire control system for tanks and combat vehicles. It provides high hit probability against all ground targets, as well as against helicopters and high‑speed aircraft.

www.saab.com

Bingo…
That right there should be a burning question.

No doubt.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

What does a universal Carrie’s give my AT det that a quad doesn’t ?

A little bit of armour and I suspect more carrying capacity.

 

[KevinB]

A little bit of armour and I suspect more carrying capacity.

And a significant increase in footprint and logistics support.

 

[NavyShooter]

The UC is an archaic design with limited armour and relatively high maintenance needs as compared to a side by side or quad.

What do we need to have to replace the C3?

Something common.

Something reliable.

Something capable of firing within the existing range templates.

Something with a digital fire control system compatible with both the RegF and PRes training abilities

Something with an integral training capability (dry firing/simulation)

Something that will fit within current armouries and RegF vehicle bays.

The problem is, procurement is, as always, stunted, and behind the curve. That curve is approaching the point of collapse due to the limited number of C-3's that are still serviceable.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

And a significant increase in footprint and logistics support.

Just joking around with the UC, but I am sure if someone gave them 500 of them, the Ukrainians would be happy and put them to use. Be interesting how they perform with a new engine and auto transmission.

 

[KevinB]

The UC is an archaic design with limited armour and relatively high maintenance needs as compared to a side by side or quad.

What do we need to have to replace the C3?

Something common.

Something reliable.

Something capable of firing within the existing range templates.

Something with a digital fire control system compatible with both the RegF and PRes training abilities

Something with an integral training capability (dry firing/simulation)

Something that will fit within current armouries and RegF vehicle bays.

The problem is, procurement is, as always, stunted, and behind the curve. That curve is approaching the point of collapse due to the limited number of C-3's that are still serviceable.

The answer to your above questions is the M119A3.
But I would argue that is simply adding a bandaid, as opposed to a holistic look at the needs of the CAF from what the PRes RCA should be able to offer.