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C3 Howitzer Replacement

I believe that the 6x6 might do better off road but the 8x8 handles highways at higher speeds (>90 km/h). The Volvo 6x6 is limited to 70 km/h.

ive driven them through 2 feet of mud uphill so the artics can work off road, no idea on the 8x8 straight
From the article it looks like commonality with the fleet of logistics H2 8x8s already in Swedish service. I wouldn't doubt that there are also some stability and robustness improvements and longer range (800kms v 650). OTOH the 8 x 8 is a more complex chassis.

I'm still not an overwhelmed fan of either the Archer or the RCH 155 on Boxer principally because of the low on-board ammo count and the complexity of "bombing up" the turrets. I've recently watched an RCH 155 being resupplied with ammo and it looked worse than Archer. That's something that really needs working on.

I'm also not so fond of all the advertisements as to shoot and scoot. They make it sound like it provides some invulnerability that other systems do not have. IMHO the improvements in STA - including UAVs and OWUAVs - negates much of the shoot and scoot advantage with the old catchphrase of "you move; you die." These guns have very distinct physical signatures and will be high-priority sought after targets. I can't see these guns deploying without a robust dedicated anti-air capability/plan.

Don't get me wrong, they're still better than an M777, - especially the L52 barrel - but they aren't Superman.

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seems like with drones there will need to be some sort of integral anti drone system but the alternative is to remain vulnerable to counter battery fire? Perhaps in Ukraine the danger from drones is greater than that of counter battery fire now?
 
Thoughts on the M327 mortar?
No!!!

Don't just try to cobble together a solution that's cheap and easy. If there's one thing that I want to get across in this forum its that the removal of mortars from infantry battalions and given to the artillery was a colossal, fiscally-driven cock-up that is still screwing things up two decades later.

Artillery has a purpose which is to rapidly mass fires where needed. That can't be done with mortars no matter how people like to quote new improved ranges for 120mm ammunition. If you can't afford a decent gun system then give gunners UAVs and OWUAVs and air defence etc. Give the mortars back to the infantry where they belong.

Just a small overview. The Canadian army has enough RegF and ARes personnel to man two divisions (assuming not everyone is on parental leave, stress leave or whatever other restrictions and the manifest is fully manned). Whether you look at that as one division to deploy and one to provide sustainment and train replacements for deployment doesn't matter. That's the manpower pool you have to play with. How many you actually deploy at any given time is a matter of preference, but right now we equip our artillery on the basis of fielding a full battlegroup (with one 6-gun battery and an STA and AD element that is evolving) and another contingency battlegroup with minimal arty support (which generally means no guns)

In any proper thinking army that looks at the tactical needs of a division you need as a minimum three, better yet four, 18-gun battalions (54 to 72 guns @155mm calibre). Add in at least one STA battalion (lets say a dozen radars (LCMR and MRR mix and a dozen SUAVs); an air defence battalion (18-24 launchers) and a battalion of 18 mixed HIMARS and OWUAV launchers. Add in another 50% again, as a minimum, as the stay-at-home training cadre for the second division and as replacements for combat losses. That type of organization will eat up every existing RegF PY and every ARes authorized position to man.

Right now, all those PYs and authorized ARes have an operational stock of a total of 24 x M777s, some MRRs, LCMRs and SUAVs and a twinkle in their eye that the system will kick out some rocket launchers and an air def bty or two before hell freezes over.

My thought process is to equip the army with what it needs for combat, not what might make a poor training aid. You can't deploy training aids to war. People will die if you do. If you don't want your people to die then you either beg and borrow gear from other folks (who might need it for themselves) or you stay at home.

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My thinking was that towed and rifled mortars would be under the purview of artillery, and smoothbore mortars that can be packed up be infantry. So the Soltam K6/M120 120mm mortar, L16 81mm, M224 or M6 60mm and maybe even a 51mm would all be infantry, and the M327 would be artillery.
 
My thinking was that towed and rifled mortars would be under the purview of artillery, and smoothbore mortars that can be packed up be infantry. So the Soltam K6/M120 120mm mortar, L16 81mm, M224 or M6 60mm and maybe even a 51mm would all be infantry, and the M327 would be artillery.
Remember what the fundamental differences are as between a gun and a mortar. Guns generally fire at a flatter trajectory, have a stronger chamber to allow heavy pressure which equals faster time of flight and range. The heavier barrel of the gun also leads to better accuracy. The rifling in a mortar is immaterial as is its being towed.

The thing is to think of indirect fires in both layers and range bands. The initial layer and the shortest range goes to mortars which provide intimate support to their battalion. Its guaranteed to be there ready to support the battalion at all times. It does not integrate well into the fire of other battalion's mortars. They basically play in their own space.

Artillery comes with a host of capabilities which an infantry battalion can't afford to support - it has other priorities and tasks. With its longer range, accuracy and communications network, artillery can range widely across the front and mass fires well with other guns. A brigade and even a division or corps can concentrate the fires of all of its artillery wherever it wants on a moments notice. Add in to that surveillance and target acquisition artillery, air defence artillery and rocket and missile artillery all integrated with a communication and coordination capability that allows artillery to strike deep into the rear of an opponent and break them up before they get close enough to be engaged by mortars. In effect guns are the next layer and rockets and missiles the third.

The point is that just because mortars are a type of indirect fire, doesn't mean they are part of an artillery function. They work well doing what they are designed to do, work with the direct fire and manoeuvre elements that are organic to the battalion. They are part of a complete team at the battalion commanders beck and call which are able to operate well within the battalion's area of operations.

Sure, you can have gunners man mortars - and some countries do - but why would you? I'll go back to the early parts of Advancing with Purpose and mortars were taken away from the infantry (and mech battalions still don't have them back.) No one was happy with that - neither the grunts nor the gunners. The grunts didn't want to lose the mortars, and the gunners didn't want to have them.

It was a fiscal PY exercise taking people from the infantry for various other roles including creating CMTC. The artillery was given no extra people to take over 9 mortar platoons (and in fact they didn't take over 9 platoons. The initial plan was for each RegF artillery regiment to have one mortar battery which meant 12 mortars for a brigade where there had been 24. But even worse came about in 2005. Each regiment had 18 guns at the time - 12 M109s and 6 LG1s - but they were then cut back to two six-gun batteries who also had to man the mortars in a weapon's locker format. When the M777 appeared, no extra people came with them so the six seven-man detachments evolved into four ten-man detachments - so eight guns per regiment plus a few mortars in the stores for "just in case".

Once again, the concept turned around deploying battle groups. In 2002 for Op Apollo the artillery was only required to provide a 4-tube mortar group. The winds and weather in the mountains made the mortars a poor choice to deploy. Much later in 2006 and thereafter each 10-man M777 detachment also had two 81mm mortars which were used whenever appropriate for close in targets that would benefit from high angle fire. Batteries went out with either four or six guns and eight or twelve mortars. It's a very silly system that barely worked for an insurgency and would collapse in a matter of hours in high intensity combat.

The 81mm mortars are still hanging around but haven't gone back to the mech battalions because there simply aren't any infantry PYs for them as it stands. I mean does anyone in their right mind actually think that a bunch of gunners in a soft skinned truck (all the TLAVs are gone and who knows how many ACSVs the arty will get) and an 81mm mortar are going to accompany a LAV battalion? Whose minding the M777s while they are swanning around trying not to be killed?

Honestly, speaking as a former gunner, I don't want to see any mortars going to the artillery. It would perpetuate a stupid idea and probably lead some of the bean counters to conclude "that's good enough; we don't need any of the expensive guns or their ammunition." And folks will die. Right now we have more than enough 81mm mortars for the light battalions. Get some new mortars for the mech battalions - none of that towed shit - get them a proper modified ACSV with a 120mm Nemo mortar turret.

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Which is why all of this to me is just stressing the need to rework the entire CA.

Until you have a concept of your force, and a way to implement it, nothing will change. Tried this in the mid 80s. 1RCR and G&SF didn;t last a tear!

Part of the problem I see is non of the 3 Maneuver Bde’s in the CA want to ‘lose’ status, so the quagmire just keeps getting worse.

Someone needs to force the reformation. Getting rid of the non combat formations, and restricting the Army (as a whole) into 2 Divisions. There will need to be a huge staff bloodletting - Res Units getting chopped into Companies or Platoons, and the subsequent removal of senior Officer and NCO positions.

But also turning the Reserves into an integral part of Operational units.

Only then will equipment become a reality and a true mission given that will ensure that there are more than enough recruits for the jobs required.
 
Get some new mortars for the mech battalions - none of that towed shit - get them a proper modified ACSV with a 120mm Nemo mortar turret.
That's already a thing, no need to reinvent the wheel.

M1129 mortar carrier (M1252 double V hull upgrade). Has a Soltam K6 mounted in the hull with the Cardom system, plus a stowed 60 or 81mm mortar for dismounted ops.

The incoming M1287 mortar carrier, a variant of the Bradley, will also use the K6.

Stryker_MCV-B.jpg


Stryker_fie_120.jpg


Infantry also need 60 and 120mm mortars, and maybe even 51mm.
 
That's already a thing, no need to reinvent the wheel.

M1129 mortar carrier (M1252 double V hull upgrade). Has a Soltam K6 mounted in the hull with the Cardom system, plus a stowed 60 or 81mm mortar for dismounted ops.

The incoming M1287 mortar carrier, a variant of the Bradley, will also use the K6.

Stryker_MCV-B.jpg


Stryker_fie_120.jpg


Infantry also need 60 and 120mm mortars, and maybe even 51mm.
Bingo
 
That's already a thing, no need to reinvent the wheel.

M1129 mortar carrier (M1252 double V hull upgrade). Has a Soltam K6 mounted in the hull with the Cardom system, plus a stowed 60 or 81mm mortar for dismounted ops.

The incoming M1287 mortar carrier, a variant of the Bradley, will also use the K6.

Infantry also need 60 and 120mm mortars, and maybe even 51mm.
In SBCTs, the M1129 is allocated at the rate of two per coy and a 4-tube group at battalion. Each has an 81mm tube as well as a locker room swap out for dismounted ops.

There are some differences as between the ACSV chassis and the M1129 so there would be a need to "kit bash" the ACSV to even make it suitable for carrying the K6 mortar.

Like my view on artillery, I'm a strong supporter of a system that can be operated completely under armour. The M1129 det is partially exposed while operating the mortar. This is why I favour the Nemo turret which keeps the crew fully protected and which also offers the advantage of firing on the move and the ability to fire directly at a target.

My uneducated guess is that it's probably just as easy, if not easier, to add a Nemo turret to an ACSV hull than to install a roof hatch and floor frame for a K6. From the manufacturer: "The light and compact turret is easily installable on light, tracked chassis or wheeled armoured vehicles in the 6x6/8x8 class". I'd be curious to see if it could go on a TAPV. :giggle:

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My uneducated guess is that it's probably just as easy, if not easier, to add a Nemo turret to an ACSV hull than to install a roof hatch and floor frame for a K6. From the manufacturer: "The light and compact turret is easily installable on light, tracked chassis or wheeled armoured vehicles in the 6x6/8x8 class". I'd be curious to see if it could go on a TAPV. :giggle:

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Now you're just being cruel.
To both the TAPV and the poor bastards crewing the damned things.
 
In SBCTs, the M1129 is allocated at the rate of two per coy and a 4-tube group at battalion. Each has an 81mm tube as well as a locker room swap out for dismounted ops.

There are some differences as between the ACSV chassis and the M1129 so there would be a need to "kit bash" the ACSV to even make it suitable for carrying the K6 mortar.
It really depends on what LAV ACSV, the Type 2 High Roof is not going to work to add anything up top - unless you want to make a more unsuitable Vehicle than the TAPV.



Like my view on artillery, I'm a strong supporter of a system that can be operated completely under armour.
I tend to agree - at least for Medium and Heavy formations.
The M1129 det is partially exposed while operating the mortar.
Some of the Stryker Mortar systems in Iraq had some pretty interesting armor setups - I think a more protected "turret" option is definitely possible.

This is why I favour the Nemo turret which keeps the crew fully protected and which also offers the advantage of firing on the move and the ability to fire directly at a target.
I'm always leery of setups like that that rely on Autoloaders without a lot of room for the crew to work on stoppage clearance.

My uneducated guess is that it's probably just as easy, if not easier, to add a Nemo turret to an ACSV hull than to install a roof hatch and floor frame for a K6.
I tend to doubt that.
From the manufacturer: "The light and compact turret is easily installable on light, tracked chassis or wheeled armoured vehicles in the 6x6/8x8 class". I'd be curious to see if it could go on a TAPV. :giggle:
There is a large difference between could, and should...
Tipping over in the showroom would need to be on your bingo card.
 
It really depends on what LAV ACSV, the Type 2 High Roof is not going to work to add anything up top - unless you want to make a more unsuitable Vehicle than the TAPV.
Agreed - needs to be a standard hull.

On reflection, rather than an ACSV, a standard LAV 6 hull with the manned 25mm turret replaced by the Nemo turret would be substantially simpler to do.
There is a large difference between could, and should...
Tipping over in the showroom would need to be on your bingo card.
Are you suggesting some defence contractors lie? ;)

With the LAV 6 concept, the Nemo turret at around 2 tons probably doesn't add much, if anything, to the mass or significantly change the CG of the vehicle.

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Agreed - needs to be a standard hull.

On reflection, rather than an ACSV, a standard LAV 6 hull with the manned 25mm turret replaced by the Nemo turret would be substantially simpler to do.
The NEMO turret still concerns me - mainly because it was looked at down here and abandoned - which to me suggests that it may have some issues in Combat.
Are you suggesting some defence contractors lie? ;)
All Contractors lie - the real question is by how much, I once saw an invoice that suggested someone worked 92 hrs a week for 5 weeks in one month...
I wasn't aware there where any months that had 35 days, which also lead me to believe the 92hrs a week may have been a little questionable too.

With the LAV 6 concept, the Nemo turret at around 2 tons probably doesn't add much, if anything, to the mass or significantly change the CG of the vehicle.

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The NEMO turret still concerns me - mainly because it was looked at down here and abandoned - which to me suggests that it may have some issues in Combat.
Is there a reference to it being abandoned? According to various articles it was successfully tested earlier this month in Fort Moore, Georgia.


Regardless, I think I can say with extreme confidence that a LAV with the NEMO turret would perform significantly better in combat than the current 120mm mortar system in our LAV Battalions...
 
In SBCTs, the M1129 is allocated at the rate of two per coy and a 4-tube group at battalion. Each has an 81mm tube as well as a locker room swap out for dismounted ops.
And? Nobody says we have copy US SCBT doctrine. We can have more than two per company.

There are some differences as between the ACSV chassis and the M1129 so there would be a need to "kit bash" the ACSV to even make it suitable for carrying the K6 mortar.
Then don't use the ACSV, just build straight M1129 or M1252 hulls from the start.
 
Is there a reference to it being abandoned? According to various articles it was successfully tested earlier this month in Fort Moore, Georgia.


Regardless, I think I can say with extreme confidence that a LAV with the NEMO turret would perform significantly better in combat than the current 120mm mortar system in our LAV Battalions...
I wasn't aware that we'd acquired and deployed 120 mm mortars.
 
Is there a reference to it being abandoned? According to various articles it was successfully tested earlier this month in Fort Moore, Georgia.


Regardless, I think I can say with extreme confidence that a LAV with the NEMO turret would perform significantly better in combat than the current 120mm mortar system in our LAV Battalions...
There's a picture of it on this BAE site.
And? Nobody says we have copy US SCBT doctrine. We can have more than two per company.
Our doctrine is to keep all 81mm mortars in the bn's mortar platoon. We gave up the 60mm years ago in favour of the C16 grenade launcher in our famous "you gotta give up something to get something" acquisition program.

That said, I have no problem with the SBCT organization albeit I prefer the Canadian one to have the mortars concentrated in one platoon. That's not to say that they can't be decentralized - either as a groups or sections - as appropriate.

Interestingly under the original organization, an SBCT rifle company also had a platoon of three MGS direct fire vehicles. Those were eventually removed and some of them concentrated into a company in the SBCT's cavalry squadron. IMHO, if the Nemo direct fire capability is as viable as they say it is then attaching some of them - a la SBCT - to rifle companies might be an idea worth pursuing with trials.
Then don't use the ACSV, just build straight M1129 or M1252 hulls from the start.
See the LAV 6 turret replacement idea above - its better tactically and ensures vehicle chassis compatibility across the fleet.I wasn't aware that we'd acquired and deployed 120 mm mortars.
I wasn't aware that we'd acquired and deployed 120 mm mortars.
Unless there is an unpublished secret coming out of DLR, I don't think we have acquired any 120mm recently.

In the distant past we had both 4.2 inch and 120mm mortars, but not in the last 4 or 5 decades.

Funny story though, we did deploy a 120mm mortar in combat in Afghanistan in 2006.

When TF 3-06 first occupied Sperwan Ghar after MEDUSA, US Special Forces ODB 330 had been delivered an "FOB kit" which included a 120mm mortar and 100 rounds. They handed it over to the E Bty folks at SPG. It was missing a sight and firing tables. A couple of gunners tested out one of their 81mm sights, found it would do. For firing tables, they phoned home, contacted our own @Petard at the artillery school just before he was leaving for the day. He called the Canadian rep at Picatinny Arsenal in the US and in short order a tabular firing table was digitized and transmitted to the battery which then made use of the mortar. Bearing and range were calculated using the gunners' indirect fire control computer software in the usual fashion and elevation from the tabular firing tables.

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Unless there is an unpublished secret coming out of DLR, I don't think we have acquired any 120mm recently.
That was my point. @KevinB expressed some concerns about NEMO's potential performance in combat based on previous trials in the US (presumably prior to this months trials on the AMPV?) but I'm saying that for Canada a LAV-based NEMO system is better than nothing at all. Maybe it's too early for cynical sarcasm.
 
@FJAG missed the dripping sarcasm.


As for the Nemo testing currently in Benning (sorry too many years to call it Moore, albeit it’s a decent name, unlike the Bragg/Victory fiasco), I’m guessing a newer version? The previous Bradley test didn’t work so well (and I’m not connected with that sort of stuff to ask anything in detail), I’m not sure if it had been tested on AMPV, given it’s sort of like the ACSV Type 2 sort of thing as far as size/height, I guess if that tried it wouldn’t have been great (now that makes me wonder if they called that the Bradley test given the chassis is the same (other than being stupidly bigger).
 
@FJAG missed the dripping sarcasm.

It happens all too often. :giggle:
As for the Nemo testing currently in Benning (sorry too many years to call it Moore, albeit it’s a decent name, unlike the Bragg/Victory fiasco), I’m guessing a newer version? The previous Bradley test didn’t work so well (and I’m not connected with that sort of stuff to ask anything in detail), I’m not sure if it had been tested on AMPV, given it’s sort of like the ACSV Type 2 sort of thing as far as size/height, I guess if that tried it wouldn’t have been great (now that makes me wonder if they called that the Bradley test given the chassis is the same (other than being stupidly bigger).
The article I cited in my last post mentions that its on an AMPV and there is a picture of it there. Makes sense that it would be an AMPV rather than a Bradley. Interestingly, if it works out it could be easily adapted to a Stryker chassis and then provide for a common weapon system across the mechanized portion of the army.

That said, I'm not sure if there is enough pull to upgrade Strykers since they are now finding their way as the third brigade in the armored division (as opposed to the armored division (reinforced)). I expect they are there for their ability to bring lots of dismounts to the armored div's fight which means that there is no real "fiscal" reason to have their mortars protected any more than their dismounts are. (Although when I'm at my most cynical I think the real reason the SBCTs are in the armored division is because the US has 8 fully equipped SBCTs [6 active, 2 ARNG] and needed to find a role for them) From a "tactical" rather than a "fiscal" point of view I think an armoured mortar should find its way into the armoured div SBCTs as should an armoured 155mm SP to replace the M777s that are there right now.

We Canadians, who treat the LAV a bit more as an IFV, definitely need armoured mortars ... and armoured ATGM carriers and armoured 155mm SPs. I remain of the view that the best replacements for the C3 howitzers is to buy several battalions on 155mm SPs and build several batteries of UAV/OWUAV launchers to supplement the LRPRS and GBAD systems already earmarked. 90 guns and 50 launchers plus spares would do it for the RegF and ResF complete.

My most recent thoughts on the organization of an arty fd regt looks like this:

00 CA Arty 3.0.png

IMHO, the three RCHA regts and 12 of the ARes arty regts would be reorganized to form a total of six of field regiments (4 x SP and 2 x M777). 4 GS RCA and the four remaining ARes regts and three independent batteries would form an AD Regt and an LRPR regiment. The estimate of 90 SPs is based on the four manned SP regts as well as a the equipment for a forward positioned fd regt in Latvia. Three additional M777s plus spares are required to form two full M777 regiments. All artillery would be organized into two artillery brigades allocated at one for each of the two divisions the army would be reorganized into.

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