C3 Howitzer Replacement

[Colin Parkinson]

I suspect their counting of operational 105mm's is rather optimistic.

 

[FJAG]

Being a min of 3 people per gun the new program likely will have an autoloader or atleast semi automated reducing crew needs which means additional PYs won't be needed. Given how many we are buying plus LRPF etc. We are wanting to get our arty out of enemy range.

You only need three to fire the M777 - everyone else does ammo. Autoloader SPs have notoriously small ammo magazines. They will need frequent reloading. Since guns are mobile forward rearming points have to be mobile with redundancy. There may - I repeat - may - be a saving in PYs, but when you consider upping from four to six guns in a battery and that ammo handling behind the detachment in both the battery (not to mention sustainment system) is minimal, I'll wait for what comes down the pipe to predict where the PYs end up.

Talking to the 3 Div commander yesterday, the armies mind set is that right now 777 in a conventional war would be setting up under enemy fire already. So how do we mitigate that? Increased range, but also trying to get faster to reduce time on location

Before USSR v 2.0 we organized and equipped ourselves for discretionary failed states scenarios and deferred preparing for deterrence or LSCO. We are now focusing on LSCO and deterrence - but we shouldn't mistakenly rule out that we might also need to do something else again like being a member of a coalition in a failed state scenario where SPs may not the the optimum solution. It's always good to have some options available. We already own the gun. Let's not throw it out.

To me the Army needs to decide what it wants to be when it grows up.

That's the right question.

Given the SPA numbers, and the reported intent to create a Light Bde, retaining the M777 makes sense - use 30th 11th and 56th to make numbers up for 2 RCHA as a 24 gun 777 Reg't - and the SPA for the rest for the other Artillery units.

I think of Canada having one light brigades as a global quick reaction force which tilts me more towards regulars - lets say 70/30. I would see 30 Fd and 42 Fd as the logical FGs for a third gun battery for 2 RCHA and additional STA and loitering munitions capabilities. Maybe even 49 Fd.

7 Tor, 11th and 56th I'd see as the 70% portion of two SW and south central Ontario based SP regiment supporting a brigade out of each of London and Toronto. And yes, I do see the complications relating to the limited ranges in Meaford. That's a problem looking for a workable solution.

SPs are the stuff of deterrence and mobilization including a forward presence capability. I see those more as 70/30 hybrids which support our mech brigades and maybe even additional motorized brigades. Don't forget AD's resurgence and - perhaps - LRPF.

As to 24 guns. I'm not sure that I see an eight-gun battery anymore. I'm not sure if anyone has done the terminal effect math of 155 projectiles and modern autoloaded guns, but I see the span of control and sustainment over more than six dispersed guns as problematic. I'd rather see a fourth battery of six guns if 24 guns are necessary. That said, in my mind I see a CS regiment having four fires batteries and a HQ battery. I see three six-gun batteries for CS and a fourth GS battery using primarily UAVs, radars and loitering munitions to provide STA and depth and precision fires across the whole brigade front.

 

[dapaterson]

If you want 49 FD to support 2 RCHA you should be required by law to drive from Sault Ste Marie to Petawawa after work on a Friday night, and stop for dinner at the Wendy's in Espanola before advocating such a thing.

Bonus points for grabbing your very late night snack at the Burger King in Deep River and wearing a cardboard crown while doing so.

 

[KevinB]

You only need three to fire the M777 - everyone else does ammo. Autoloader SPs have notoriously small ammo magazines. They will need frequent reloading. Since guns are mobile forward rearming points have to be mobile with redundancy. There may - I repeat - may - be a saving in PYs, but when you consider upping from four to six guns in a battery and that ammo handling behind the detachment in both the battery (not to mention sustainment system) is minimal, I'll wait for what comes down the pipe to predict where the PYs end up.

Before USSR v 2.0 we organized and equipped ourselves for discretionary failed states scenarios and deferred preparing for deterrence or LSCO. We are now focusing on LSCO and deterrence - but we shouldn't mistakenly rule out that we might also need to do something else again like being a member of a coalition in a failed state scenario where SPs may not the the optimum solution. It's always good to have some options available. We already own the gun. Let's not throw it out.

That's the right question.

I think of Canada having one light brigades as a global quick reaction force which tilts me more towards regulars - lets say 70/30. I would see 30 Fd and 42 Fd as the logical FGs for a third gun battery for 2 RCHA and additional STA and loitering munitions capabilities. Maybe even 49 Fd.

7 Tor, 11th and 56th I'd see as the 70% portion of two SW and south central Ontario based SP regiment supporting a brigade out of each of London and Toronto. And yes, I do see the complications relating to the limited ranges in Meaford. That's a problem looking for a workable solution.

SPs are the stuff of deterrence and mobilization including a forward presence capability. I see those more as 70/30 hybrids which support our mech brigades and maybe even additional motorized brigades. Don't forget AD's resurgence and - perhaps - LRPF.

As to 24 guns. I'm not sure that I see an eight-gun battery anymore. I'm not sure if anyone has done the terminal effect math of 155 projectiles and modern autoloaded guns, but I see the span of control and sustainment over more than six dispersed guns as problematic. I'd rather see a fourth battery of six guns if 24 guns are necessary. That said, in my mind I see a CS regiment having four fires batteries and a HQ battery. I see three six-gun batteries for CS and a fourth GS battery using primarily UAVs, radars and loitering munitions to provide STA and depth and precision fires across the whole brigade front.

CS rule of 1 sub unit / maneuver unit.
Given Canada has a perchance for 4 maneuver units / Bde, 4 gun batteries per Regt make sense for the CMbG’s .

I prefer 8 guns/ gun battery but can live with 6, - but with the 777, the main reason was the amount of guns you have and supporting only 3 LIB’s so 3 firing batteries of 8 guns per battery.

 

[KevinB]

If you want 49 FD to support 2 RCHA you should be required by law to drive from Sault Ste Marie to Petawawa after work on a Friday night, and stop for dinner at the Wendy's in Espanola before advocating such a thing.

Bonus points for grabbing your very late night snack at the Burger King in Deep River and wearing a cardboard crown while doing so.

I’d done that drive a few times (had grandparents in SSM). I’ve never done in an SMP vehicle but know a few folks that have - and it’s not a good drive at all.

 

[Underway]

So what SPG you think is viable? Going wheeled Archer style or more K9 tracks.

 

[FJAG]

If you want 49 FD to support 2 RCHA you should be required by law to drive from Sault Ste Marie to Petawawa after work on a Friday night, and stop for dinner at the Wendy's in Espanola before advocating such a thing.

Bonus points for grabbing your very late night snack at the Burger King in Deep River and wearing a cardboard crown while doing so.

I don't expect it to be an every weekend thing. I expect most of their dry training and small arms training to be in their local areas.

Was in 2 RCHA for four years when we had batteries bus in from Guelph, Hamilton, Brantford, Toronto, Ottawa and the Sault - signed over F Bty's guns and vehicles on a Friday night, deployed to the field that night and fired until Sunday afternoon when they cleaned guns and drove home by bus that night.

I think you'd be surprised at what gunners will do when they get the opportunity to put rounds down range.

Do truckers still have cruiser buses or are those all leased now?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It was common for us to drive to Yakima and back (410km each way) in our Deuces with the guns on tow for a weekend of shooting.

 

[TSM A]

Saluting is a secondary task that can be abolished with little to no impact.

The Army Reserve's constant attempts at self justification with tasks only they care about is tiresome.

100%, additionally there are multiple methods to accomplish the salute noise that don't require a howitzer to do it.

Wow! tell me how y'all feel!!
What's wrong with some traditions? Remembrance day ceremonies just wouldn't be the same without the Gun Salute.

 

[dapaterson]

Tradition is peer pressure from dead people.

 

[FJAG]

So what SPG you think is viable? Going wheeled Archer style or more K9 tracks.

Pretty much everyone knows me to be a tracked fan. While the RFI does not specify a preference for wheeled, it does have a minimum highway speed requirement of 80 kmph which leaves out every tracked SP. We've had the argument about the validity of this requirement upthread and I won't restate it here.

What bothers me about most wheeled SPs is the restricted onboard ammo supply. In a distributed high-intensity battle, there will be many times that the guns are out of action changing position and rearming. Not an ideal situation unless you have contingencies to deal with that. I don't have a favourite because the only way that you can evaluate these guns is with hands-on testing and shoot off. Glossy brochures can't be believed.

 

[FJAG]

Tradition is peer pressure from dead people.

You do know that you are wrong. Right?

 

[dapaterson]

You do know that you are wrong. Right?

Name five people outside the RCA who care about gun salutes.

 

[FJAG]

Name five people outside the RCA who care about gun salutes.

Civilians care more about pomp and circumstance than many in the military appreciate.

I'll put it to you this way. To be relevant to others you must be seen. You can see that within the CF where capabilities that are not seen by the general part of the military population are frequently trimmed as low risk losses because senior management hasn't seen its value in their day to day experience.

We all sit around on this site and yap about how little the general public knows or cares about the military while everyone snuggles away and does their "operational stuff" in bases far removed from the public. Things like freedom of the city parades and gun salutes and flood and fire fighting and even Highway of Heros repatriations is a way for the public to see that the country does have a military and lets it appreciate just a little more its service.

Canada's military is quite poor at selling itself to the public. Every time we do a gun salute some legislative body and a slice of the public understands we are there. That matters.

 

[KevinB]

Civilians care more about pomp and circumstance than many in the military appreciate.

I'll put it to you this way. To be relevant to others you must be seen. You can see that within the CF where capabilities that are not seen by the general part of the military population are frequently trimmed as low risk losses because senior management hasn't seen its value in their day to day experience.

We all sit around on this site and yap about how little the general public knows or cares about the military while everyone snuggles away and does their "operational stuff" in bases far removed from the public. Things like freedom of the city parades and gun salutes and flood and fire fighting and even Highway of Heros repatriations is a way for the public to see that the country does have a military and lets it appreciate just a little more its service.

Canada's military is quite poor at selling itself to the public. Every time we do a gun salute some legislative body and a slice of the public understands we are there. That matters.

Having spent some 7 years at 30Fd I can tell you 99.9% of saluting tasks have the guns well hidden from public view.

The only exception was the 9lb’er and the majority of the outward facing ones where for the officer mess or some internal CAF thing.

I am serious when I say that I could replace a saluting battery with a pickup truck and a bunch of single banger DefTech’s and no one would have a clue other than there wouldn’t be 6 Gun Tractors trying to awkwardly park at Parliament Hill or the Airport.

Would also be cheaper.

 

[FJAG]

Having spent some 7 years at 30Fd I can tell you 99.9% of saluting tasks have the guns well hidden from public view.

Experience vary. Mine were in Toronto in Queen's Park and in Winnipeg - always out in the public eye.

Yeah. I see where cheap is in with the CF. Don't know when I've last seen a recruiting TV ad or a billboard. But I guess applicants aren't the problem. Throughput is.

 

[PrairieFella]

Name five people outside the RCA who care about gun salutes.

That's the exact same mentality that has caused our COMREL to be non-existent since forever. The next generation are experientially driven, they need to see and feel first and foremost.The people need to be seeing us in public, this is a cheap easy win.

 

[Kirkhill]

I understand The King'sTroop Royal Horse Artillery draws a crowd.

Treat C3s like 25 pdrs. Chrome muzzle brakes and red painted wheel nuts.

 

[dapaterson]

Who said anything about not being out in public?

Gun salutes are generally not centre stage.

 

[PrairieFella]

Who said anything about not being out in public?

Gun salutes are generally not centre stage.

But they're felt and heard, the exact kind of experience that drives Gen Z.