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Cadpat and Personal Info in the Surplus

Pikache

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[ Article   ]

Jim Farrell
The Edmonton Journal

Tuesday, October 26, 2004
MORINVILLE - A military surplus dealer wonders how he will recoup his investment in what could be the civilian world's biggest collection of state-of-the-art camouflage clothing.
In August, the army threatened to arrest Scott Collacutt if he sold his 3,500 cadpat "Canadian Disruptive Pattern" uniforms.
Collacutt, owner of Morinville's CEL Army Surplus, purchased the uniforms sight-unseen from Edmonton Garrison as scrap textiles.
The uniforms were buried within shipments of assorted cast-off military clothing that Collacutt buys on spec. After buying the clothing, Collacutt and his employees rummage through the boxes to find things to sell. Anything that can't be sold is trashed.

The factory-second or damaged uniforms began appearing in his boxes in the summer of 2002, within months of first being supplied to Canadian soldiers, Collacutt said. This was about the time the military declared them "controlled goods" that must be mutilated or burned rather than sold when worn out or damaged.
"I wasn't told about this until I got a phone call on July 27 of this year," said Collacutt, who has already sold some of the uniforms to a movie supply company in Vancouver. Other uniforms have been sold to soldiers whose own needed replacing.
"Ninety per cent of my business is with the regular force or the cadets," he said.
To broaden his market, Collacutt gave 50 uniforms to a colleague who took them to Las Vegas, where he distributed them at a convention of military surplus dealers.

On Sept. 2, 37 days after the military informed him in a letter he would have to return the uniforms or face charges, Collacutt got his first indication he'd hit pay dirt.
"I'm looking for 500 pair of the Canadian camouflage uniforms in assorted sizes as soon as possible," a co-owner of Mad Dog Wholesale in Chico, Calif., informed him in a fax.
"I will need this amount approximately every 60 days," Dutch Padgett wrote.
American hunters would love to own one of the Canadian uniforms, Padgett told The Journal on Monday.
"Any kind of (camouflage) is good," said Padgett. "Cadpat is special because it's the newest thing out there."
American hunters would pay plenty for the newest thing in camouflage, Collacutt said.
"The uniforms I have could retail (for) $150 and up. I could probably get $90 wholesale."

Researchers first began working on
the Canadian design in 1988, looking for a "disruptive" pattern that would trick the human eye.
Eventually, they came up with a computer-generated design of small rectangles, called "pixelation," which had to be reproduced on fabric with exacting accuracy.
At one time the U.S. Marines considered adopting the design for its new pattern but the Canadian government owns the copyright.
To assist the Marines, the Canadians supplied information to help them develop their own computer-generated pixelated uniform.
To date, American military surplus dealers have been unable to get their hands on any new marine uniforms, Padgett said.
"They want to control it."

So does the Canadian army.
"We would prefer if this not be walking out there," said Maj. Scott Lundy, public affairs officer for the Edmonton-based Land Force Western Area.
Collacutt can understand why the Canadian army changed its mind about the uniforms.
Following the destruction of the World Trade Center, militaries everywhere clamped down on sales of equipment, fearing terrorists or others might disguise themselves as bona fide soldiers, he said.

The commanding officer of Edmonton Garrison's 1 General Support Battalion denies there's a security risk. Because of illicit sales, plenty of uniforms have made it on to the civilian market, Lt.-Col. John MacKay said.
Nevertheless, these uniforms shouldn't have been put up for sale.
"It was a bad error," MacKay said. "We have fixed the process."
In exchange for returning 30 large boxes of uniforms, the military is offering 30 boxes of "scrap textile" plus an extra 15 boxes "in compensation for your time and effort," Collacutt said.

When he originally bought the boxes of mixed cast-off clothing, Collacutt paid approximately $2 a pound.
To return the uniforms scavenged from those loads, he now wants $159,000, plus $5,000 in legal fees, $3,600 in lost wages and a one-year extension on his contracts with the military.
If a deal is struck, the military will haul away the uniforms and burn or shred them.

[email protected]

***

Oops?
 
Yeah Oops.   IMHO that stuff should never have ended up being sold for surplus.   It should have all been burned or shredded...
 
RoyalHighlandFusilier said:
To return the uniforms scavenged from those loads, he now wants $159,000, plus $5,000 in legal fees, $3,600 in lost wages and a one-year extension on his contracts with the military.

He's letting them off waaayy to cheap. Stupidity should not be rewarded.
 
It said the US Marines wanted to use it but Canada had the copyright for it.  Couldn't we have made quite a large amount of money by liscencing it to the USMC?
 
I'll bet that DND makes alot off the 'information' that they supplied the US at any rate.

The Marines have released their own 'MARPAT' that looks alot the same, save for the fact that the colours are different, and other subtle differences.

There is another thread on the forums discussing the new MARPAT, but, as of now, I am too tired to look for it right now.
 
scm77 said:
It said the US Marines wanted to use it but Canada had the copyright for it.   Couldn't we have made quite a large amount of money by liscencing it to the USMC?

I could have sworn I remember reading/hearing that the USMC paid Canada for the software license ...
 
NEWS Mon, February 21, 2005 

Surplus a privacy issue
AJAY BHARDWAJ, EDMONTON SUN

Alberta's privacy commissioner is calling for a federal investigation into how soldiers' personal information was left on laptops turned over to an army surplus store. "Oh yeah," said Frank Work yesterday. "It would appear the military may have breached the federal Privacy Act, and so the federal commissioner would be interested in that."
Morinville-based CEL Surplus owner Scott Collacutt said he's received restricted military goods - including night vision goggles, Starlite Scopes, chemical-testing equipment and laptops containing personal information on soldiers - in his shipments over the past two years.

Collacutt said he's returned about $2.5-million worth of military goods he's mistakenly received.
The military was fortunate Collacutt didn't sell the computers to a buyer, Work said.
"They got lucky. It sounds like this guy is a pretty decent chap."
Had Collacutt not returned the computers, Work said he would have bought them himself to protect the soldiers' personal information.
"Protecting these people's privacy is the most important thing," he said.
"It's not very encouraging, but it does happen. You know, you send 200 laptops down to have the discs wiped and someone misses some. It's not much comfort to the folks whose information is on there, but it does happen."

Work said he plans to alert the federal privacy commissioner, Jennifer Stoddard.
Lt.-Col. John Mckay said the military has tightened the loopholes that allowed some sensitive equipment to be sent to Collacutt. He also added some of Collacutt's claims are "sensational."

Retired major-general Lewis MacKenzie said he was surprised to hear of the foul-up.
"It's not as if they take a front-end loader and fill it up and drop them into cardboard boxes," he said. "It's not that much stuff.
"In actual fact, it's very surprising that it wasn't noticed as part of the process ... This sounds like it was incompetence."

But MacKenzie said the Canadian public needn't be alarmed to hear of some of the equipment Collacutt had received and returned. Given the Canadian Forces are chronically short of up-to-date equipment, he said, the material sent off to surplus operations would have to be completely obsolete.
"I can go and buy stuff that was every bit as good as I was using 12 years ago," he said. "Night vision devices, there's lots of those around ... there's all sorts of sophisticated stuff around."

MacKenzie said he figured the night vision goggles, in particular, must be "extremely old, because we don't have enough of them already. But I am a little out of date."
 
..and does not seem to be the first time that things went somewhere that they should'nt have....

http://army.ca/forums/threads/16339.90.html        {Scroll down to Bossi's post}


...of course, this guy could just be looking for free advertising also.....
 
Attention! shoppers

ARMY SURPLUS STORE GETS CLASSIFIED EQUIPMENT

By AJAY BHARDWAJ, SUN MEDIA Mon, February 21, 2005

A MILITARY supply store operator says he's returned more than $2.5-million worth of sensitive and restricted equipment to Edmonton Garrison over two years. Scott Collacutt, owner and president of CEL Surplus, said he's received laptop computers containing secret data on soldiers' pay, personnel social insurance numbers, service evaluations and troop movements.

He said he's also gotten shipments containing military equipment he's forbidden by the federal government to sell -- such as night vision goggles, radio sets and military global positioning devices.
"Had this gotten into the wrong hands, this is stuff that could have been used not only against our country but against our soldiers," said Collacutt.
Collacutt has a contract with the Canadian Forces to sell surplus and disposed clothing and textiles, though it expires next month. The deal also forces him to return any sensitive materials he might receive.

The 43-year-old ex-soldier ran into problems last year when he was mistakenly sent military camouflage uniforms called CADPAT, or "Canadian Disruptive Pattern."
The military threatened to jail or fine him if he continued selling the camouflage.
Later they cleared him to sell the gear, but now he says his business has been "crippled" by the blow to his firm's reputation.
Collacutt is asking $41,000 from the armed forces to cover his losses.

Lt.-Col. John Mckay, commanding officer of 1 General Support Battalion, said the base investigated and found Collacutt mistakenly received CADPATs.
Since then, he said, the security loopholes have been closed.
But he added military records of what was sent to Collacutt are difficult to obtain because personnel come and go, leaving gaps in the information.
"Did he return some things? Yes," said Mckay. "He was good enough to return some things, but to the extent that he's claiming, with the sensationalism that he's claiming, we don't have facts of that.
"Some items he obviously got in the past that he shouldn't have received."

Mckay allowed there's a possibility Collacutt could have received computers that contained personal information about soldiers.
"If he got information like that, it would have been an error. But I find it hard to believe he got sensitive information like that."

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2005/02/21/937620-sun.html
 
NEWS Sun, February 20, 2005  

Return to sender

AJAY BHARDWAJ, EDMONTON SUN


A Morinville military supply store operator says he's returned more than $2.5-million worth of sensitive and restricted equipment to Edmonton Garrison over two years. Scott Collacutt, owner and president of CEL Surplus, said he's received laptop computers containing secret data on soldiers' pay, personnel social insurance numbers, service evaluations and troop movements.

He said he also got shipments containing military equipment he's forbidden by the feds to sell - such as night vision goggles, radio sets and military GPS devices.
"Had this gotten into the wrong hands, this is stuff that could have been used not only against our country but against our soldiers," said Collacutt.
One shipment contained aerial photos and maps of the 2002 G-8 summit site at Kananaskis, several months after the summit of world leaders ended, he said.

Collacutt has a contract with the Canadian Forces to sell surplus and disposed clothing and textiles. The deal also forces him to return any sensitive materials he might receive.
The 43-year-old ex-soldier ran into problems last year when he was mistakenly sent military camouflage uniforms called CADPAT, or "Canadian Disruptive Pattern."
The forces threatened to jail or fine him if he continued selling the camouflage. Later they cleared him to sell the gear, but now he says his business has been "crippled" by the blow to his firm's reputation.
He's asking the military for $41,000 to recoup his losses.

Lt.-Col. John Mckay, commanding officer of 1 General Support Battalion, said the base investigated and found Collacutt mistakenly received CADPATs. Since then, he said, the security loopholes have been closed.
But he added military records of what was sent to Collacutt are difficult to obtain because personnel come and go, leaving gaps in the information.
"Did he return some things? Yes," said Mckay.
"He was good enough to return some things, but to the extent that he's claiming with the sensationalism that he's claiming ... we don't have facts of that.
"Some items he obviously got in the past that he shouldn't have received. It's a big business, getting rid of this stuff, and some things slip through.

"We don't have records of a lot of the stuff going to him. If he says he got it, OK. We don't have proof of that on our end."
Mckay admitted Collacutt could have received computers that contained personal information about soldiers.
"If he got information like that, it would have been an error. But I find it hard to believe he got sensitive information like that. Nothing should be going out the door like that."
But Collacutt worries that his contract, which expires next month, might lead the military to sell obsolete equipment straight to individuals.

"The average Joe buys a box of military clothing to get a uniform out of it," he said. "He opens it up, finds a set of night vision goggles that work. How fast will he return them?
"I think the military was very fortunate that we were a filter for them and we sent back all this stuff. We could have outfitted a small army with what we had."

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/EdmontonSun/News/2005/02/20/936859-sun.html

http://edmonton.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=ed_uniforms2001029

Let me get this straight . . . this guy is ex-CF and knew enough to return NVG's and GPS units -  but thought he was good to go in selling CADPAT?
 
mo-litia said:
Let me get this straight . . . this guy is ex-CF and knew enough to return NVG's and GPS units -  but thought he was good to go in selling CADPAT?

Yeah so, maybe he got out of the CF a while ago and did not know the uniforms would be considered restricted.  Equipment like NVGs, GPS etc, are little bit more sensitive than you know some cloth with a digital print.
 
Hatchet Man said:
Yeah so, maybe he got out of the CF a while ago and did not know the uniforms would be considered restricted. Equipment like NVGs, GPS etc, are little bit more sensitive than you know some cloth with a digital print.

He hasn't been out that long; his store has only been open for a few years.   Anyway, I am fairly certain that dealers are given a concise list of what they can and can not sell, and our brand new CADPAT certainly falls into that catergory.

Of course, he may have sold it in error. IMO, I think he should be given the benefit of the doubt as he has already proved his integrity by returning more sensitive pieces of kit.

At the end of the day, I'm sure this guy has got a family to feed like the rest of us. I hope the CF doesn't cancel his contracts for surplus buying rights.

 
He said he also got shipments containing military equipment he's forbidden by the feds to sell - such as night vision goggles, radio sets and military GPS devices.

Oh no! he can't sell shitty nvg's (which you can buy in sporting good stores), radios you can get on ebay, and GPS units which are inferior to most civilian models   ::)

The dumb f**ks in supply need to get their act together. If they ship it to him, they can't hold him responsible for selling it. In fact, ther person who gets punished should be the dumbass who sent the stuff in the first place.

Oh, and no records my ass; somebody is covering their 6 for sending out the stuff.
 
rw4th said:
radios you can get on ebay,

MIlitary radios? Really? Well, so much for that class on what to do when you're being overrun: take off manpack and shoot the shit out of it.
 
Go to e-bay... type in "PRC"... you'll probably find mostly 77 and 104 accessories, what's not is still vietnam era stuff...
 
Are either the 77 or 104 sets capable of encrypted transmissions? I've never actually used a 104, and I've only ever used a 77 a couple of times, not entirely familiar with it... that being said, as far as I can see, there's no reason why that equipment couldn't be sold as surplus... and at the same time, I can see many reasons why a civillian would want to get their hands on either.

The new radios on the other hand, I can see some reasons why they should be sold as surplus, as well as why a PLGR shouldn't be sold, but I can't see any reason why N/S night vision couldn't be sold.
 
[b]"The dumb f**ks in supply need to get their act together. If they ship it to him, they can't hold him responsible for selling it. In fact, ther person who gets punished should be the dumbass who sent the stuff in the first place."[/b]

I'm well acquainted with Scott C from CEL Surplus.  He has always been great to do business with.  He is honest and always willing to 'make a deal'!  As stated above, it wasn't Scott who screwed up.  Now to cover their own ****'s, they are going to harass him out of business when his only offence was to capitalize on their mistakes as any good free enterpriser has to be able to do in order to survive.

I advised Scott to get political and get some pressure on these deadbeats that are attempting to crucify him out of business.  It's going to be interesting where this thing goes.  :salute:  To Scott C of CEL Surplus and all freedom loving people!!
 
  As far as selling of old military equipment goes you also have to be aware of what is classified under the ITAR agreement (International Traffic in Arms Regulations) as equipment that must be destroyed rather than sold off.   If anything classified under ITAR that is supposed to be destroyed is sold off, in theory, a big stick should reach out and whack you.

  I remember not too long ago some old parts from Cougars being demilitarized (i.e. destroyed beyond repair), at the unit level and scrapped at work.   It was only a few metal rings, not good for much, BUT...   the supply people did not like it that 'we' destroyed it instead of turning it in for Supply to destroy it.   This item was classified under ITAR as a part that must be demilitarized and not sold even as scrap despite its age, lack of functioning, and "good-for-nothingness".

  I am pretty sure night vision and radios come under the ITAR agreement.   Whether or not a superior version exists "downtown" or not is not the point nor is how much of a "nice guy" the mil surplus guy is.   Other governments who do business with us get very testy about where their military hardware ends up.   If the guy is ex-military he should know well enough to just give the stuff back and not give into to the "dollars over patriotism" gang.   I think the military should compensate him by giving him back what he spent, NOT what he could potentially earn by selling this stuff; that is holding the country hostage for profit.

------Any item not disposed of properly has the potential to be used by those who would do us harm------

~~~Imagine this~~~

You are manning an OP in some crappy out of the way hole and some one shows up in a complete set of CADPAT, that he bought 42nd hand in some geopolitical hotspot that started out at the store of the 'nice guy trying to earn a living by selling surplus CADPAT and other military equipment', speaking fluent english and French looking for all the world like he just had his truck shot out from under him and is on his last legs.   You are concerned for his welfare as he drags himself towards you and you dispatch your subordinate to go outside the wire and help a fellow Canadian soldier.   You subordinate arrives just in time to help this stranger before he succumbs to his wounds and brings him back to the OP.   Then the ungrateful swine blows your OP up because he is a terrorist and you did not recognize him because of his clothing..... could happen, especially at night.   Think about it, how often do you see people go through an OP without being challenged just because they were 'dressed right'.

Well, enough of this ranting have to go eat....

Cheers,

DR-V.



>>>The new radios on the other hand, I can see some reasons why they should be sold as surplus, as well as why a PLGR shouldn't be sold, but I can't see any reason why N/S night vision couldn't be sold.
 
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