Haggis
Army.ca Fixture
- Reaction score
- 4,276
- Points
- 1,140
For those with TLDR, a CAF MP MWO is suing over an alleged defect in the C22 pistol that cause him a career-ending injury.
CAF MP SUES DND AND SIG SAUER
- Thread starter Haggis
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 40,239
- Points
- 1,210
He thought his foot was a raccoon.
McG
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 5,910
- Points
- 1,260
Range shooting is training, so it is possible.
- Reaction score
- 23,171
- Points
- 1,010
Yes, that is my understanding. Since the MPs need to carry with a round chambered, they need to do holster drills that way, too. I guess.
- Reaction score
- 17,722
- Points
- 1,160
That USAF case is going to make the bar to prove it was not operator error, much higher.
MilEME09
Army.ca Fixture
- Reaction score
- 7,580
- Points
- 1,210
Correction this was not a C22, this was an earlier model P320 similar to what the USAF uses. The official investigation put no blame onto the pistol itself, though this incident is one of the reasons why there is only 1 allowed holster for the C22.
- Reaction score
- 13,861
- Points
- 1,260
Do they need to? (genuine question). If so, why don't police have a pistol with a safety?
McG
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 5,910
- Points
- 1,260
Potentially that is what the Govt will have to explain in court.
Because when we need a pistol we may need it right the hell already, and an external safety is a fine motor skill that could easily not work well in that critical moment. It also means movement of the thumb which is trying to play a critical role in a strong, stable grip. External safeties are arguably obsolete for fighting pistols. I’m not saying there aren’t any police services out there with a pistol with external safety, but I couldn’t name one.
Bear in mind that the holster is not just multiple layers of retention, but it also covers the trigger and trigger guard. An external safety is more necessary with a long gun that’s at much greater risk of something snagging the trigger. Pistol triggers tend to be quite a bit heavier as well.
We actually sometimes had the amusingly opposite problem, where cops new to the C8 would forget there is an external safety and stumble at first when trying to fire.
If we have a gun on our hip, there’s one in the spout… So it’s just something we’re utterly used to. Outside of certain range exercises the only time I’ve ever worn my pistol without a round in was on a commercial aircraft, mag in my pocket. Very specific circumstances.
Concur. If you need a pistol, you need one in the chamber, and your training should be up to that task.
I would be completely unsurprised if this was a case of something maybe getting snagged in the holster.
Draw-shoot-assess-reholster drills are super normal and routine to rep out.
- Reaction score
- 9,491
- Points
- 1,260
Every police service in the country does this. Manual safeties are largely seen as obsolete one combat hand guns. Glocks use a trigger safety for example. A pistol should be bolstered with a round chambered. That keeps anything beyond the shooter from operating the trigger. Frankly if Brink's and G4S can have people driving around with chambered rounds anyone can.
In any event there are a number of C22 range practices that involve drawing a loaded readied pistol and firing - as that should be the expected standard.
- Reaction score
- 2,209
- Points
- 1,260
When I worked part-time at Brinks we carried a revolver, with a shotgun in the cab.
Read this about current policy,
- Chambered Status: As an armored transport company, Brink's typically trains their armed guards for duty with a round in the chamber for immediate defensive use.
Haggis
Army.ca Fixture
- Reaction score
- 4,276
- Points
- 1,140
This!
Plus this is Canada where you need to wear gloves for at least 5 months of the year.
I'm a professional firearms instructor with a large federal agency. We're in the process of selecting a new pistol and I had to demonstrate to some bean counters just how hard it is to disengage a manual safety with a gloved thumb under stress.
Quite possible as that was apprently the case with the occurence at DHTC.
Also, as noted by MilEME09, if this was an early 320 without the upgrade package and not a C22/C24, it's possible. That's why Sig Sauer came up with the upgrade. Of note, if you own an early 320, Sig Sauer will upgrade it for free.
- Reaction score
- 9,491
- Points
- 1,260
I would actually hazard a guess and say the CAF is probably the only organization in the country that doesnt begin pistol training with the pistol in the holster, to include the load ready drill ending with a return to holster.
- Reaction score
- 13,861
- Points
- 1,260
Makes sense when you work through the logic of threat scenarios in law enforcement. I knew this was standard practice, but wasn't tracking the details re: pistol construction and training.
I've carried a pistol (both old and new one) on multiple operations, and have never carried it with a round in the spout. Often, because the thing was a secondary paperweight (in Afghanistan I rarely carried it as it was needless extra weight) or because the regulations didn't authorize it. On one deployment, it would have been inappropriate to do so due to the context. That said, the threat and scenarios didn't, in my mind, make having a readied pistol an imperative.
Training and familiarity are one issue. Until Afghanistan, the Army had a weird psychology about carrying a readied rifle on safe. After, people were quite comfortable with it, but I've seen younger soldiers blink at times. I'd wager many (most?) soldiers receive neither the training time nor the experience for them to be comfortable carrying a readied pistol with no external safety.
Haggis
Army.ca Fixture
- Reaction score
- 4,276
- Points
- 1,140
In most cases, the way our ROE are written, drawing to point and racking to chamber a round were seen as an escalation step demonstrating our resolve and intent to use deadly force.
I don't know how it is with the C22/C24 training, but before I got out (2018) the Army sucked at pistol training and would often default to "safety scared, not safety conscious".
Fair. We have the familiarity and comfort that comes with daily carry. CAF does not. The flip side I’ve seen is anyone coming over from CAF is generally very comfortable and proficient with C8 while cops who are new to it take a while to get comfortable with the idea of carrying one. And with CAF, if they are carrying a pistol, it’s very secondary to a long arm. On our side, a deadly fight is likely to be unexpected, sudden, and probably very physically close. We train to get ‘fast enough, good enough’ shots off from the holstered draw at very short range very quickly, for scenarios where the other guy was first to produce a weapon.
Concur. I first shot pistol on infantry DP2A in I think 2005? The instructors for the most part had probably only shot it on their own DP2A a couple years previously. I then shot it a bit on group for TF3-08, but again the quality of instruction was low. My first decent instruction on pistol was on Urban Ops Instructor in 2012; the infantry school had a WO who shot IPSC and was a surgeon with the Browning.
It wasn’t too moving to policing that I got high quality instruction on pistol fundamentals from a bunch of guys and girls who really knew their stuff. I became an instructor a few years later, and our instructor development was also much better than anything I got in CAF for pistol.
With all that said, I completely understand, as a former infantry NCOs who knew how to fight his section, why pistol is such an afterthought. It by and large only exists to fight your way back to a functioning rifle.
Finally pulling back to the subject of this thread- CAF MPs of course sit somewhere straddling both sides. I’ve never shot with MPs or seen how their instructors are. I desperately hope their pistol training is better than the rest of CAF, but have no idea if it is.
- Reaction score
- 9,491
- Points
- 1,260
If you do the training package that the C22 mandates, it's fairly robust and should result in comfort with a readief pistol. That said I reiterate the issue is that we should begin training with a pistol on the assumption you'll carry it loaded and readied. The problem becomes now we have to teach two different draws - one readied and one not. The correct drill should be i unholster my pistol, load it, ready it, check the brass indicator / press check it, return it to my holster. In even the even i have to engage in draw and fire, potentially from the hip or chest if i dont have time and space. That is all normal pistol drill.
Conversely where the caf begins i now have to teach soldiers to potentially do an awkward half draw / ready drill and then do what after they engage? Unload and holster?
All this is to say that carrying a loaded readied pistol isnt inherently dangerous, the CAF at large just sucks at teaching it. Thats what creates the training scars at play here. Regarding the threat - if its high enough to justify carrying a loaded weapon why would you not carry it readied?
Similar threads
