CAF Rank Structure vs Unified Ranks

[Blackadder1916]

I don't know how many Jews are currently serving, but years ago my CO was a practising Jew.  One of the other Reg Force Jews (or at least that's what she put that down as her religion) was also in the unit, a Cpl MSE Op.  The subject only came up because we were on exercise near a US base that had a temple and the CO wanted to attend services and wondered if the Cpl wanted to be his driver for that day and also attend services.  She, much like many of us Catholics, couldn't be bothered with such nonsense.  The CO did mention at one time the number of his faith who were serving (he looked it up) in the early 1990s and (IIRC) it was somewhere under a hundred, but not by much.  Then again, what does it matter?

Oh, and just to dispel stereotypes, both were from the Maritimes.

 

[Lumber]

I don't know how many Jews are currently serving, but years ago my CO was a practising Jew.  One of the other Reg Force Jews (or at least that's what she put that down as her religion) was also in the unit, a Cpl MSE Op.  The subject only came up because we were on exercise near a US base that had a temple and the CO wanted to attend services and wondered if the Cpl wanted to be his driver for that day and also attend services.  She, much like many of us Catholics, couldn't be bothered with such nonsense.  The CO did mention at one time the number of his faith who were serving (he looked it up) in the early 1990s and (IIRC) it was somewhere under a hundred, but not by much.  Then again, what does it matter?

Oh, and just to dispel stereotypes, both were from the Maritimes.

it doesn't matter at all, other than for curiosity's sake. Why are some definable groups more or less represented in the CAF compared to other groups?

 

[dimsum]

I've worked with a few practising Jews and a couple of devout Muslims.  One of them used to call up to the Bridge to see what direction we were facing so he could pray to Mecca 5x a day (when able). 

As for the "people with money" front, one of the Coxn's of the MCDVs around the early/mid-2000s was part of the Birks jewelry family, and another guy (who went to the Armoured Corps but not sure which Regt) was about the same social circle of Prince William while at St. Andrews. 

All of them were pretty humble folks.

 

[brihard]

Actually, that is not correct if you are saying NCO includes WO --> CWO. 

QR & O, Vol 1, Chap 1, Art 1.02 - Definitions

"non-commissioned officer" (sous-officier) means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal;

If you were to word it more accurately, you could say "progression thru junior to senior ranks, for both Commissioned and Non Commissioned members...".

Same ref as above:

"non-commissioned member" (militaire du rang) means any person, other than an officer, who is enrolled in, or who pursuant to law is attached or seconded otherwise than as an officer to, the Canadian Forces; *

"officer" (officier) means

a. a person who holds Her Majesty's commission in the Canadian Forces,
b. a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, and
c. any person who pursuant to law is attached or seconded as an officer to the Canadian Forces; *

Sorry, pet peeve of mine.  WOs, MWOs and CWOs are not NCOs.  They are Warrant Officers. 

I've attached a PDF that talks in some part of the history of the Warrant Officer, before and after unification and other info, including some info on what FJAG is speaking to below.

Yes, thank you, I’m very well aware of the differentiation between the SNCO and the Warrant Officers in the Canadian Military- I did not require the primer on functions of my own mess. I thought I had made it clear that I was generalizing for simplicity’s sake and to stick to the question at hand. Apparently I did not make that clear enough. I was speaking of western militaries generally, not just the Canadian one. It was unnecessary for the topic to get too granular in the specific Canadian breakdown of the non-commissioned ranks in their entirety. The point was officers and non-commissioned ranks and how they break down in the military versus police environments. The lumping together that I did was entirely appropriate for the discussion. It was also not necessary for me to break down the separate Warrant Officer ranks in the RCMP, but they exist too.

 

[Pusser]

Yes, thank you, I’m very well aware of the differentiation between the SNCO and the Warrant Officers in the Canadian Military- I did not require the primer on functions of my own mess. I thought I had made it clear that I was generalizing for simplicity’s sake and to stick to the question at hand. Apparently I did not make that clear enough. I was speaking of western militaries generally, not just the Canadian one. It was unnecessary for the topic to get too granular in the specific Canadian breakdown of the non-commissioned ranks in their entirety. The point was officers and non-commissioned ranks and how they break down in the military versus police environments. The lumping together that I did was entirely appropriate for the discussion. It was also not necessary for me to break down the separate Warrant Officer ranks in the RCMP, but they exist too.

I understood what you were getting at.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I have a mature OS working for me.  He has applied for SCP.

He has previous experience in the Bulgarian Army as an Infantry NCO.

He managed a major construction company in Bulgaria.

He came to Canada in the mid nineties.

He is a full Canadian citizen.

He holds various degrees and a masters

He fluently speaks 6 languages, all recorded on his MPRR.

He is a father and a husband.

He was turned down for SCP last year because he lacked experience.

How do we justify recruiting 18 year old kids as officers if this guy lacks experience ?  I have never seen a more glowing example of how backward our recruiting system and rank structure can be.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I have a mature OS working for me.  He has applied for SCP.

He has previous experience in the Bulgarian Army as an Infantry NCO.

He managed a major construction company in Bulgaria.

He came to Canada in the mid nineties.

He is a full Canadian citizen.

He holds various degrees and a masters

He fluently speaks 6 languages, all recorded on his MPRR.

He is a father and a husband.

He was turned down for SCP last year because he lacked experience.

How do we justify recruiting 18 year old kids as officers if this guy lacks experience ?  I have never seen a more glowing example of how backward our recruiting system and rank structure can be.

Wow. Sounds like you have grounds for an appeal there. 

 

[Good2Golf]

The sad thing is that it's hard to find people of equivalent 'privilege with choice' serving in the CAF, as an example to others if nothing else.

DB, do you mean known/overt members of privilege?  I know a very senior member, now retired, whose family was very well off.  His father was an English Knight, in fact, but you would never know it from the guy - he was very low key...humble and stood entirely on his own accomplishments.

:2c:

G2G

 

[Halifax Tar]

Wow. Sounds like you have grounds for an appeal there. 

Pardon my ignorance as I am very unversed in the world of commissioning from the ranks programs. 

A member can appeal such a decision ?  Or would this follow a grievance process ?

 

[Pusser]

How do we justify recruiting 18 year old kids as officers if this guy lacks experience ?  I have never seen a more glowing example of how backward our recruiting system and rank structure can be.

A very good question.  There is no doubt that it is far easier to become an officer in the CAF if you are an 18 year old kid, fresh out of high school, than a more mature individual with both life and military experience.  I once recommended a top notch petty officer for commissioning, but he didn't get it because felt he was deemed only an "average" candidate.  I somehow think I know more about what a CAF LogO needs to be than a very junior and inexperienced PSO (a newly graduated lieutenant) does.  That still rots my socks.  The end result, is that the CAF lost an incredible petty officer, who could easily have been a senior officer by now.  He moved on (and apparently is doing very well).

It is certainly possible to grieve this.  I wonder though whether there are some security implications that no one is talking about. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

DB, do you mean known/overt members of privilege?  I know a very senior member, now retired, whose family was very well off.  His father was an English Knight, in fact, but you would never know it from the guy - he was very low key...humble and stood entirely on his own accomplishments.

:2c:

G2G

From my (admittedly very blinkered) perspective, it seems that the military is shunned by Canadian 'elites' and, as a result, we suffer when it comes to higher level decision making. It also means that the 'burden of our country's defence' probably rests unfairly upon the shoulders of the 'poor, dumb people' (like me ) .

The militia, for example, used to have a lot of members who were from high powered families, or were self-made high powered professionals, with a voice the extended well beyond the armoury walls. Now.... not so much IMHO... The term 'ghettoization' hasn't been used yet to my knowledge, but we're likely not far off in some ways. Ironically, although the British have a reputation for being class obsessed, their military seems more vertically representative than ours, as it relates to socio-economic levels anyways.

Maybe MilCol helps address this issue for us? Not sure. We might also try and do a better job of targeting the 'upper levels' but might be shy for some reason. For example, my short experience with our recruiting system definitely shows a preference for hitting up public vs. private schools.

The answer? No idea of course, but just an observation from a guy who once served in an Army where that seemed to be less of an issue.

 

[Halifax Tar]

A very good question.  There is no doubt that it is far easier to become an officer in the CAF if you are an 18 year old kid, fresh out of high school, than a more mature individual with both life and military experience.  I once recommended a top notch petty officer for commissioning, but he didn't get it because felt he was deemed only an "average" candidate.  I somehow think I know more about what a CAF LogO needs to be than a very junior and inexperienced PSO (a newly graduated lieutenant) does.  That still rots my socks.  The end result, is that the CAF lost an incredible petty officer, who could easily have been a senior officer by now.  He moved on (and apparently is doing very well).

It is certainly possible to grieve this.  I wonder though whether there are some security implications that no one is talking about.

It seems like we would almost rather intake from the street than turn a worthy NCM into an officer.  I don't understand that train of thought.  But I can be pragmatic to the point of naiveté at moments.

I am interested to hear what you think a security concern would be. 

 

[Pusser]

I am interested to hear what you think a security concern would be.

It wasn't that long ago that Bulgaria was one of "them" on the other side of the wall.  Until 1991, they were a full-fledged member of the Warsaw Pact, NATO's direct rival.  Notwithstanding that they are now a NATO member, they still have a recent history of being the "enemy."  At the very least, doing a background check on this guy could be problematic.  I have to admit that when I was in Bosnia in 2002, it seemed a little odd to see the Bulgarian guard force patrolling Camp Butmir (NATO HQ) carrying Soviet weapons and using Soviet armoured vehicles.  They were very nice though.

I'm old enough to remember standing on that wall and staring the red menace in the eye.  The world may have changed a great deal since then, but it wasn't that long ago and although your guy may not have served in a Warsaw Pact army, I suspect he can still remember living under a communist regime.  The influence that the Soviets had on Warsaw Pact nations was significant.  They had their hands well inside most of their institutions and we may have little ability to get reliable records out of Bulgaria.  Please note that I am only speculating.  I am no expert on this stuff.

On an interesting side note, I was on exercise in Poland a few years ago in an area that had been a Soviet base and training area.  All the "local" Poles were fairly new to the area as the entire population until the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact had been Russian.  Poles were not even allowed into the area - a part of their own country.  There were some pretty interesting things there, but even the Poles could not explain some of them (like an entire abandoned town in the middle of the forest, complete with a main street with multi-storied brick buildings)

 

[blacktriangle]

It seems like we would almost rather intake from the street than turn a worthy NCM into an officer.  I don't understand that train of thought.  But I can be pragmatic to the point of naiveté at moments.

I am interested to hear what you think a security concern would be.

The CAF would definitely rather take someone from the street to become an officer. The proof is in the intake numbers. Also, when applying for programs like UTPNCM (possibly SCP too, I'd have to check) the aptitude test score is biggest thing they seem to care about.

 

[Blackadder1916]

It seems like we would almost rather intake from the street than turn a worthy NCM into an officer.  I don't understand that train of thought.  But I can be pragmatic to the point of naiveté at moments.

Having been an officer in an MOC that, at one time (the 1980s), was made up primarily of those who had served in the ranks - one study said over 85% had previously been NCOs -, I can attest to the wonderfulness of those who receive their commissions after being indoctrinated to military life in the great unwashed lower ranks.  Actually there was probably the same ratio of assholes and plugs as those who went to RMC.  But in the case of your Bulgarian Private, oh sorry, Ordinary Seaman who didn't make the SCP cut due to "inexperience",  remember, the SCP is an in-service commissioning "competition" where he would have been judged not only against the basic requirements but also against other serving soldiers who also applied for SCP and not against the anemic records of civilian DEO applicants.  What experience, actually Canadian military experience would his record contain that could trump that of a Cpl, MCpl or Sgt who acquired his degree while still performing above standard at his CF day job?  That's the "experience" he is probably lacking.  While the SCP is technically open to any NCM, how many Pte/OS (let alone ABs) are going to match the military record of even a junior NCO.

 

[dimsum]

How do we justify recruiting 18 year old kids as officers if this guy lacks experience ?  I have never seen a more glowing example of how backward our recruiting system and rank structure can be.

A possible reason is that while said NCM has tons of life experience, which is a good thing, those 18-year olds will be able to be molded by the system.  Kind of like a civilian pilot joins the RCAF and starts in Phase 1 or 2 to "knock the bad habits out". 

As for the list of things that the OS has done, I'm not part of the selection process (so take with a huge grain of salt) but the one thing that would stand out for Officer v. NCM is that he managed the major construction company.  There are NCMs with multiple Masters (and at least one I know with a Ph.D), have had foreign military experience, and who can speak multiple languages.  Also, I'm not sure what level of responsibility NCOs had in Bulgaria - I've worked with Eastern European militaries and they seem to push leadership responsibilities that would be taken at the MCpl and above level to Officers.

My 2 Bulgarian Levs.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I understood what you were getting at.

I did as well, however given the thread title and knowing not all on the site are military, and some that are military don't know the difference, it was worth being accurate on.  Which I why I said:

you could say "progression thru junior to senior ranks, for both Commissioned and Non Commissioned members...".

That wording is more accurate and wouldn't mislead anyone who doesn't know the difference.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Pardon my ignorance as I am very unversed in the world of commissioning from the ranks programs.

So am I, but I just had a read of DAOD 5002-11, Special Commissioning Plan

Is it possible the 'lack of experience' was focused specifically on his CAF service, or the CO recommendation was not entirely well written or supported thru the Div system?  I also had a member who had a degree in the officer MOSID he desired, but the CO would not support; "the mbr had not demonstrated leadership, OLQs and ZYX".  The mbr had not 'done anything substantial' in his current trade and that seemed count for a lot in the SCP world.  I've also heard that of all the commissioning programs, SCP is quite competitive as it is the 'last choice' for officer generation;  ROTP, DEO, UTPNCM etc all have more positions in the SIP that SCP, if the gen I was given is accurate (a few years ago now, too).

Having spoken to a PSO (LCdr) when I OTd about how important the CO recommendation is in the overall process;  she basically said "for NCM VOT, it is not a requirement really, we base it off what we see in the file and on the interview" but that the COs recommendation was considerably important if one was hoping to move from the NCM to the Commissioned Officer world.

A member can appeal such a decision ?  Or would this follow a grievance process ?

If it was 'last year', the clock may have run out on a grievance.

QR & O, Vol 1, Ch 7, Art 7.06 - TIME LIMIT TO SUBMIT GRIEVANCE

 

[ModlrMike]

Ironically enough, the three most senior officers in my unit are all CFR... and LogOs!

 

[ballz]

I'm guessing this is a case of his prior experience counting for absolutely nothing.

The CAF does not value being well-rounded / cross-training / etc. It seems to only be capable of seeing the trees, not the forest. For example, if you were OT'ing to Log O, you'd probably get more points for experience if you were an MSE Op or an RMS Clerk than if you were a senior Captain in the Combat Arms, because as the PSO will tell you, he/she wants to know how your prior experience is directly attributable to the trade. The institution seems to think its great at developing people when I think it's the exact opposite.