CAF Sexual Misconduct PR War- Swerved Into a Mess Discussion

No surprise and pretty much expected. The SMSRC seems to be picking up speed in its delivery and the upcoming zoom discussion on April 11 will be interesting. Curious if Lise Bourgon will be attending and ask for "more positive" stories from MST survivors to help recruiting efforts again...

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Milnet.ca Staff

 

[OldSolduer]

A typical Canadian response. Ban it. Limit it.

Because leadership won’t deal with it

 

[Remius]

Would this not be the beginning of the end of messes and assuming it is, mess dues? Or at least reforming it.

 

[OldSolduer]

Would this not be the beginning of the end of messes and assuming it is, mess dues? Or at least reforming it.

That’s the rub. Who knows?

As has been mentioned above messes are necessary. Each level needs its space.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

When is the CAF going to grow up and realize that personal accountability is an important adult trait? Maybe the CAF should start holding peers accountable for the lacklustre fitness results of their colleagues as well… or shit marksmanship... or failing PLQ.

I would be very much in favour of what you're suggesting. While I agree that personal accountability factors heavily in performance of duties, we have often sluffed off poor performance as solely a personal failing. It can be, however, inaction by the Chain of Command to correct or document poor performance, disciplinary or administrative, is a leadership failing.

It's all well and good to say "personal responsibility" when something falls off the rails. Often times, it's more than that one person's fault.

If dude flunked off PLQ, who course loaded them? Were they prepared for success on the course? Did anyone provide mentorship and guidance to this person? Were they given opportunities prior to demonstrate leadership or are they another throughput for the machine?

If someone is routinely fucking up PWT 1, has anyone booked a SAT range to improve? Drawn weapons for dry firing practice? Get that person on another range just to get the practice in?

If someone is failing a fitness test, did anyone do a corrective action (IC, RW, C&P) and come up with a plan to improve... or just leave Bloggins to fix it on their own?

"personal accountability" sounds a lot like a cop out from those who don't want to deal with improving personnel, thus improving the organization.

The CAF is bleeding people and can’t attract anyone to join… perhaps instead of pink hair and face tats, they ought to look in the mirror and see how they treat people and operate the organization.

Couldn't agree more. Part of that is holding leaders accountable when bad shit happens that they had the power and authority to correct. Nothing breeds a toxic workplace more than a delinquent member of the team that's held on because they're a "good guy". "Great in the field, break glass in case of war" no longer cuts it.

Treat people like children and that’s what you get. Treat people like professionals, instil trust, and the outcome will probably surprise you.

We are in agreement there. Part of treating people like adults/professionals also involves course correction and accountability. Treating people like professionals involves the fair and equitable application of administrative and disciplinary processes.

Treating people like professionals involves maintaining good order and discipline of those under your charge, and in turn, disciplining those leaders who fail to uphold that charge.

 

[Remius]

That’s the rub. Who knows?

As has been mentioned above messes are necessary. Each level needs its space.

So why are so many people for just dumping messes. From what I read here and what I hear if you made mess dues optional they would essentially die off with a few exceptions.

 

[FSTO]

I have a copy somewhere of RCN instructions for young Officers on how to behave and conduct themselves like gentlemen. It covered most aspect of the young Naval Officers life.

Neptune’s Notes.

 

[OldSolduer]

So why are so many people for just dumping messes. From what I read here and what I hear if you made mess dues optional they would essentially die off with a few exceptions.

Mess dues are only part of the issue IMO. On a Friday afternoon at 1600 do you really want to attend "RSMs hour"? or "COs" hour?

Or be forced to attend Mess Dinners. Or any number of functions the RSM or CO designate as "Mandatory"?

NOW before I get off the rails too far there are some functions that absolutely are mandatory - visiting dignitaries (Think Col in Chief or the CDS or the PM).

Society has changed therefore the mess system has to as well.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Neptune’s Notes.

That's it! Thank you.

Mess dues are only part of the issue IMO. On a Friday afternoon at 1600 do you really want to attend "RSMs hour"? or "COs" hour?

Or be forced to attend Mess Dinners. Or any number of functions the RSM or CO designate as "Mandatory"?

Nope. If the CAF wants us to stay late for these non operationally necessary reasons it can figure out how to pay us overtime or give us CTO for it. But I would hazard a guess that most of us have no interest in taking time away from my families because a CWO or CO has a personality complex they want to inflict on everyone else.

NOW before I get off the rails too far there are some functions that absolutely are mandatory - visiting dignitaries (Think Col in Chief or the CDS or the PM).

Do it during working hours.

Society has changed therefore the mess system has to as well.

Agreed.

 

[Remius]

Mess dues are only part of the issue IMO. On a Friday afternoon at 1600 do you really want to attend "RSMs hour"? or "COs" hour?

Right. So not necessary for anything outside of normal working hours.

Or be forced to attend Mess Dinners. Or any number of functions the RSM or CO designate as "Mandatory"?

Correct. So make it optional and let things take their natural course.

NOW before I get off the rails too far there are some functions that absolutely are mandatory - visiting dignitaries (Think Col in Chief or the CDS or the PM).

But then why would messes be required for that? Plenty of organizations make do without them.

Society has changed therefore the mess system has to as well.

Agreed.

 

[markppcli]

Would this not be the beginning of the end of messes and assuming it is, mess dues? Or at least reforming it.

One can but hope. I love the idea of the mess. When I got posted to Shilo I thought great, I can just pop in on a Friday with the wife and grab a pint and maybe chat with some people, meet some people around my age not from my unit. Nope not at all what exists. Instead I pay money monthly to get a weekly coffee break no one at a line unit can attend and a TGIT night on a week day with shitty pizza. Great.

 

[NavyShooter]

I 'voted with my feet' when I had a major falling out (up to the Brigade SM Level) with the Mess Manager when they refused to re-open our 'satellite mess' because it was 'losing money'.

I was rather blunt...the civilian Mess Manager needed to understand why exactly it wasn't losing money, but was rather providing a service to the paying members of the mess.

I now pay my dues at another mess (C&PO's mess on base) and I look forward to the Mess Manager coming to me again to say I owe dues...I really do look forward to telling them to go to hell.

That said, as a "satellite mess", the only service our troops get is Tuesday nights from 2130-2300 hrs.

The tables are falling apart, the chairs are 40 years old, and there's a dozen burnt out light bulbs in the mess. And this is the Sgts/WO's mess. Which is now the 'all ranks' mess because the MCpl and Below is in much worse shape.

A fundamental re-think of the messes should have happened 20+ years ago.

There is very much a requirement for us to provide a place for relaxation and camaraderie.

That should be a 'safe space' for the members. Maybe it should be run by the unit's Sentinels? I don't know.

Maybe I'm too old and grumpy to see what the new generation needs, but I know it's not collapsing ceilings, falling apart chairs and tables, and a 90 minute a week window of use.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I have a copy somewhere of RCN instructions for young Officers on how to behave and conduct themselves like gentlemen. It covered most aspect of the young Naval Officers life.

This guy was ex-Reg F Infantry so I doubt he read that... or would have cared

 

[Halifax Tar]

This guy was ex-Reg F Infantry so I doubt he read that... or would have cared

Totally get it.

My point is that at one time we expected more of our officers. We expected them to act, look and conduct themselves in a certain way. It was a higher standard than the rest of the CAF and the rest of Canadian society. Neptune's Notes comes from that time.

I think one of our big issues WRT to leadership is the blurring of the line between Officers and NCMs and it breaks down basic discipline which bleeds into all facets of what we do.

 

[Remius]

Totally get it.

My point is that at one time we expected more of our officers. We expected them to act, look and conduct themselves in a certain way. It was a higher standard than the rest of the CAF and the rest of Canadian society. Neptune's Notes comes from that time.

What time would that be though? A lot of the people getting into trouble and acting the way they do seems to emanate from a variety of time periods. Was that ever a thing? And if it was, was it just window dressing? Seems to me that the principles of leadership and our value system has always been there in written form. In practice maybe not.

I think one of our big issues WRT to leadership is the blurring of the line between Officers and NCMs and it breaks down basic discipline which bleeds into all facets of what we do.

Can you expand on that blurred line?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

My point is that at one time we expected more of our officers. We expected them to act, look and conduct themselves in a certain way. It was a higher standard than the rest of the CAF and the rest of Canadian society. Neptune's Notes comes from that time.

But did we really?? We SAID we expected more, but I pretty much knew that was a crock of shit at the first Officers mess dinner that a bunch of us Gunner's got tasked to serve at. Watching grown men ending up in a food fight and pissing in a hallway shot that down quick......

Not to mention then how did all those predators get to be of high rank?.......the reality is we expected MORE of our Officers to cover for other Officers. [not that the Jr Ranks didn't do it either, but how often was " at one time we expected more from our Privates" a thing?

EDIT: Remius beat me too it but surprising how the same thoughts came to us at the same time.

 

[WLSC]

I think one of our big issues WRT to leadership is the blurring of the line between Officers and NCMs and it breaks down basic discipline which bleeds into all facets of what we do.

Messes should play that role of educating their members on a lot of customs and traditions and professional deportment that are still relevant. Some need to be change, some deleted but most are still good.

Alcool was a thing in the society up ton the 90's. The jr mess at my Regiment sell more Gatorade then beers during the week.

People need to grow up and police themself for sure but that also the role of the mess comity and everyone else. If sanctions need to be done, do it. Guests are coming to the messes to have fun, not to be witness of stupid alcool behaviors. That etiquette need to be maintain all the time.

If there's a situation you know alcool will flow (I.e hockey night), manage the situation.

If that limit comes to be in effect, it will just cause more secondary issues. Treat your troop as adult, they will act like adult.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

If there's a situation you know alcool will flow (I.e hockey night), manage the situation.

Not to mention it's the law....

 

[WLSC]

Not to mention it's the law....

It's that easy.

 

[Halifax Tar]

What time would that be though? A lot of the people getting into trouble and acting the way they do seems to emanate from a variety of time periods. Was that ever a thing? And if it was, was it just window dressing? Seems to me that the principles of leadership and our value system has always been there in written form. In practice maybe not.

Absolutely, I'm not looking backward with fully rose tinted glasses. I cant say what the date of it is, but its old (see link). I would imagine 50s or 60s probably.

http://www.forposterityssake.ca/RCN-DOCS/NeptunesNotes.pdf

And we are also battling a societal problem. What's going on in the CAF WRT sexual misconduct is also happening and coming into the CAF from the overly sexualized society we are drawing from.

Can you expand on that blurred line?

Its hard to explain, but a good example is on my last FRE trip, the amount of times I had to kick officers out of the JRs mess when I was DCox'n was aggravating. I see a lot more social relationships (not meant dating) and and general social interactions with Officers and Jr NCMs than is good for an organization that requires separate ranks and responsibilities.

You can be friendly and nurturing to your subordinates without being friends...

I'm probably explaining this poorly.

 

[Kat Stevens]

But did we really?? We SAID we expected more, but I pretty much knew that was a crock of shit at the first Officers mess dinner that a bunch of us Gunner's got tasked to serve at. Watching grown men ending up in a food fight and pissing in a hallway shot that down quick......

Not to mention then how did all those predators get to be of high rank?.......the reality is we expected MORE of our Officers to cover for other Officers. [not that the Jr Ranks didn't do it either, but how often was " at one time we expected more from our Privates" a thing?

EDIT: Remius beat me too it but surprising how the same thoughts came to us at the same time.

I saw stuff serving at mess dinners as a Spr/Cpl that would have got anyone in the peasant's mess a hefty fine and some CB at least, to some time in the crowbar hotel.